what is 'this hope'?

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Paidion
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Re: what is 'this hope'?

Post by Paidion » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:55 pm

My guess is that the source of the "stake" translation comes from Jehovah's Witnesses as Brenden suspects.

Lexicons all translate "σταυρος" as "cross." The Online Bible program lexicon says:
A cross, a well known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces, at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves.
I know of no translation other than the New World Translation of Jehovah's Witnesses that translate the word other than "cross."
I think JWs render it "torture stake" only to be different from all the "religionists." I don't think there is any other reason to so translate it.

The early Christians understood "σταυρος" to be a cross.

"Barnabus" wrote:
...the cross was to express the grace [of our redemption] by the letter Τ (tau)...
If Barnabus had thought that "σταυρος" was a stake, he would have suggested the letter I (iota).

Justin Martyr in his "Dialogue with Trypho" made the following statements:
1. And the human form differs from that of the irrational animals in nothing else than in its being erect and having the hands extended...and this shows no other form than that of the cross.

2. Which things Plato reading, and not accurately understanding, and not apprehending that it was the figure of the cross, but taking it to be a placing crosswise, he said that the power next to the first God was placed crosswise in the universe.

3....that lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb, which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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robinriley
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Re: what is 'this hope'?

Post by robinriley » Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:32 am

dizerner wrote:
TheEditor wrote:"died on the stake"

Hmmmm, this seems familiar given my JW upbringing.....were you a JW too?

Regards, Brenden.
My guess from our other thread, is that is he just very familiar with the Greek.
dizerner wrote:The stauros probably most often had a cross beam.... but it's not incorrect to say it was a stake.

(robin)
In Paul's epistles, the noun is used 10 times, and the associated verb 8 times ...
And as you've kindly pointed out, dizerner, it's the cross-piece they actually hung Him on,
then attached this cross-piece to the stake, and then hoisted the whole awful affair upright ...
The noun "stauros" is, as I understand it related to the verb "to stand," which is sort of interesting,
in that "stand" appears in any number of other pertinant scriptural words ... especially, a "resurrection"
that is "anastasis" is a Greek combination word of "up-standing," hence His up-standing from the dead [ones] ...

4716 GK5089 stauros (p1/1) a stake N-NSM.01
4716 GK5089 staurou (6) of a stake N-GSM.02
4716 GK5089 staurO (3) unto a stake N-DSM.03
4717 GK5090 estaurOsan (2) they had staked V-AAI-3P.5656
4717 GK5090 estaurOthE (2) he/ He was staked V-API-3S.5681
4717 GK5090 estaurOtai (p1/1) there has had been staked V-RPI-3S.5769
4717 GK5090 estaurOmenos (p1/1) having had been staked V-RPP-NSM.5772
4717 GK5090 estaurOmenon (2) to having had been staked V-RPP-ASM.5772

Here's what Spiros Zodhiates says in his "The Complete Word Study Dictionary" ...
This Roman "cross" consisting of a strainght piece of wood erected in the earth,
often with a transverse beam fastened across its top, and another piece nearer
the botton, on which the crucified person's feet were nailed, as was the cross on
which the Lord Jesus suffered ...

Sounds more like some sort of double cross ... Ha!

And no, I'm not a JW, nor ever been one ... I treat them kindly, though, when they come to my door;
I break out the study materials and often correct them on things, and then they go away, and dont
come back for a year or two ... my French-Irish grandmother, hot tempered love that she was, would
grab her broom and chase them off the porch, and down the drive through her apple orchard ... Not
very nice, but always a good show; she never did that with the hobos, who always climbed up the
canyon, where they'd jumped off, when the fraight trains had to slow down going past Chelan Falls ..
There were always hobos coming around, doing a chore or two, for lunch and a sandwich for later; my
cousin told me that the hobos had some sort of marking system, which directed them towards the more
friendly orchards and homes ... those silly JW's should have come up with something of their own like that!

Paidion is a piece, aint he ... likes to posion the waters; likes to sound like a know-it-all, but I suspect
that the real reason he haunts forums like this one (and one other I know of), is that he's mean spirited,
and has some agenda, what exactly, I haven't yet figured out, but it not a loving agenda, that's for sure.
I'd enjoy watching him come to my grandmothers porch ... she'd break about three brooms a summer,and old
Paidion would have left in a hurry, with lots of straw boom bristles in his hair ... would have made a good show!

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jeremiah
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Re: what is 'this hope'?

Post by jeremiah » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:05 pm

Paidion is a piece, aint he ... likes to posion the waters; likes to sound like a know-it-all, but I suspect
that the real reason he haunts forums like this one (and one other I know of), is that he's mean spirited,
and has some agenda, what exactly, I haven't yet figured out, but it not a loving agenda, that's for sure.
I'd enjoy watching him come to my grandmothers porch ... she'd break about three brooms a summer,and old
Paidion would have left in a hurry, with lots of straw boom bristles in his hair ... would have made a good show!
With an attitude like this, I doubt I'll see you around this forum for very long. That looks like either a hasty judgement, or an embittered one—absurd, whichever it may be.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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Homer
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Re: what is 'this hope'?

Post by Homer » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:45 pm

I would say a bit much has been said on both sides here. It should not be assumed/implied the someone is a Jehovah's witness because of a belief that Jesus was crucified on a stake. As I recall old J. Vernon McGee taught this and nobody would have mistaken him for a JW.

One side in this discussion appears to believe in eternal security, which I disagree with, but also appears to believe in imputed righteousness which I believe is clearly taught in Romans.
Christ didn't die to cover up our sin; He died to deliver us from sin, and to enable us by God's grace to overcome wrongdoing and to live righteous lives—actual righteous lives, not a pretense, a coverup with which Christ clothes us.
So who is it that lives an actual righteous life, who does not "stumble in many ways" as someone wrote? And what is an actual righteousness like? Is it a state of sinless perfection? And if not, on what basis is one considered righteous other than by imputation? And how is it known that a person posting here lives a life of pretense?
I also don't believe that you "died on the stake with Christ." You weren't around when He died on the stake, and there's nothing in the Scriptures that affirms such a strange idea. There is one sentence in the entire New Testament that you could interpret in that way. 2 Timothy 2:11....
This scripture at least contains the idea:

Romans 6:6 (NKJV)

6. knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.


I think it very unfair to assume that someone who believes in eternal security (I'm making an assumption here), who believes God sees Him as righteous solely on the basis of faith in Christ and His death, lives a sinful life any more than any other Christian. While I believe the doctrine of eternal security causes harm in some cases (perhaps many), on the other hand I know many devoted, Godly people who believe in it. I have a first cousin who believes it and worked full time while serving as pastor of small churches that couldn't afford to hire anyone, and at 80 years old still has a ministry. Would that I was as good as him.

robinriley
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Re: what is 'this hope'?

Post by robinriley » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:33 pm

jeremiah wrote:
Paidion is a piece, aint he ... likes to posion the waters; likes to sound like a know-it-all, but I suspect
that the real reason he haunts forums like this one (and one other I know of), is that he's mean spirited,
and has some agenda, what exactly, I haven't yet figured out, but it not a loving agenda, that's for sure.
I'd enjoy watching him come to my grandmothers porch ... she'd break about three brooms a summer,and old
Paidion would have left in a hurry, with lots of straw boom bristles in his hair ... would have made a good show!
With an attitude like this, I doubt I'll see you around this forum for very long. That looks like either a hasty judgement, or an embittered one—absurd, whichever it may be.
(robin)
Yes, you're correct, my observations about Paidion were mean spirited ... I'll just have to ignore him from now on.
I dont think of myself as embittered, I'll have to ponder on that, maybe there is something I need to look into
myself closer about, but then there wasn't any hasty judgement involved, here ...not on my part at least ...

So then, jeremiah, what's your call ... would you like to see me gone from this forum ... your call.

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Re: what is 'this hope'?

Post by jeremiah » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:15 pm

Hey Robin,
you wrote:So then, jeremiah, what's your call ... would you like to see me gone from this forum ... your call.
It's not my call, nor my intent. So no brother, I wouldn't.

Grace and peace to you.

RE the OP, I think 'this hope" is the same life of the age to come promised to all who trust in Jesus, for which hope we patiently wait to be realized on Resurrection day.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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Re: what is 'this hope'?

Post by robinriley » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:09 pm

Paidion wrote:
Robin wrote:I'm a citizen of heaven, I'm saved in Christ, I died on the stake with Christ, and have been raised with Him,
I have, within me, now, God's very righteousness, in God's sight I'm everything He sees in Christ, I'm sanctified
... I'm still me, of course, bad to the bone, couldn't NOT sin if my life depended upon it! (Ha!, it does, it did, I'm dead for sure)
But then, I've already died, in Christ, and I already live in Christ ... in God's own good time, this will all be verifiable,
so in the meantime, I'll just take Him at His word, and fear not, because God doesn't go back on His word ...
Are you saying, Robin, that you can go right on sinning with impunity? Because you are covered by the blood of Christ so that when God looks at you He no longer sees your sin but Christ's righteousness? This is a very common fundamentalist view, and in my opinion, the most dangerous false belief within Christendom.
Just playing with my food, looking at the different hapaxes, and wrestling with verbs, I happened to notice that out of the nine Perfect, Passive Infinitives (RPP) in 2Timothy, only one is not a uniquely Pauline word /word form (“egEgermenon”). But seeing that this particular word is referring to Christ’s resurrection, it only makes sense that this is not specific to Paul’s epistles, only. But again, eight out of the nine of these conjugations being uniquely Pauline is interesting; perhaps, purposefully even, intended to draw our attention? So here’s the two topics I perceive from this:

1) There are vessels having had been sanctified in Christ, who are, now, well-usable unto Him, having had been readied; that is fit, and towards every good work having had been outfitted.
2) And then, there are other vessels, needing to up-sober, having had been caught-alive by the trap of the adversarial one, by those rash betrayers, who having been swelled; about the trust, their minds having had been down-corrupted, are in-slipping into the houses, and leading astray these caught-alive wee-families, having been heaped unto failing.
3) Now, these rash betrayers are identified as those who against-stand unto the truth; unapproved [ones] about the trust; enemies of the cross, in other word, but who might these caught-alive wee-families be? Surely not those of us in the Body of Christ, who occasionally fail; we all do that, as Paul certainly knows, so their un-fitness, their being un-usable must, more specifically have to do with their not fully appreciating the full sanctifying finality, sufficiency of Christ on the cross …

1:4 to you on-yearning to see, having had been reminded of the tears of your joy, so-that I should be fulfilled

2:8 To Yeshua Anointed be you remembering, having had been roused out of dead [ones]; out of a seed of David, according-to the evangel of me,

2:21* Therefore, if-ever any [one] to himself should out-clean from these [aforementioned things], he will be a vessel for’ honor, having had been sanctified, and a well-usable [vessel] unto the Master; for’ to every good work having had been readied.

2:26 and they should up-sober, out of the trap of the adversarial [one], having had been caught-alive, under same, for’ the will of this-there [one].

3:4 rash betrayers having had been swelled; gratification-fond [ones], rather’ than’ God-fond [ones];

3:6* For out of these, they be the [ones] into the houses in-slipping; and to wee-families having had been heaped unto failings, [they] being led unto various desires, capturing;

3:8* Yet, to which a manner Iannes and Iambres had against-stood unto Mosheh; thus, these [ones], also, against-stand unto the truth; men, unapproved [ones] about the trust, the mind having had been down-corrupted.

3:17 so-that a man of the God should be fit, towards every good work having had been outfitted.


RPP #5772 Perfect, Passive, Participle; Total NT Count 463
0037 GK0039 hEgiasmenon (p1/1) having had been sanctified V-RPP-NSN.5772
1453 GK1586 egEgermenon (1) to having had been roused V-RPP-ASM.5772
1822 GK1992 exErtismenos (p1/1) having had been outfitted V-RPP-NSM.5772
2090 GK2286 hEtoimasmenon (p1/1) having had been readied V-RPP-NSN.5772
2221 GK2436 ezOgrEmenoi (p1/1) having had been caught-alive V-RPP-NPM.5772
2704 GK2967 katephtharmenoi (~p1~) having had been down-corrupted V-RPP-NPM.5772
3403 GK3630 memnEmenos (p1/1) having had been reminded V-RPP-NSM.5772
4987 GK5397 sesOreumena (p1/1) to having had been heaped V-RPP-APN.5772
5187 GK5605 tetuphOmenoi (p1/1) having had been swelled V-RPP-NPM.5772

(~p1~) hapax legomenon/ hapaxes
word /word form found in just this epistle (p1/1).
Last edited by robinriley on Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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TheEditor
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Re: what is 'this hope'?

Post by TheEditor » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:23 pm

Hey Homer,

I meant no ill-will suggesting Robin has a JW background, or may have been exposed to it. Heck, some of my best friends are.... :lol: Either way, it's a translation that is nearly unique to JWs and jumped out at me, for obvious reasons.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Re: what is 'this hope'?

Post by robinriley » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:57 am

TheEditor wrote:Hey Homer,

I meant no ill-will suggesting Robin has a JW background, or may have been exposed to it.
Heck, some of my best friends are.... :lol: Either way, it's a translation that is nearly unique to JWs and jumped out at me, for obvious reasons.
Regards, Brenden.
(robin)
Good morning Brenden ... Truly, there was no offense construed; your observation, assumption, has been heard before,
and there's some logic in it, seeing as how one doesn't often run accross an English translation that reads the noun "stauros"
and verb "estaurOsan" as anything other than "cross" and "crucified" ... not even the literal Young's, nor the more consistent,
concordantly literal CLNT; fact of the matter, I believe it's only the even more literal Dabhar (The Writ), which also reads
these Greek words like I prefer to do ...

4716 GK5089 stauros (p1/1) a stake N-NSM.01
4716 GK5089 staurou (6) of a stake N-GSM.02
4716 GK5089 staurO (3) unto a stake N-DSM.03
4717 GK5090 estaurOsan (2) they had staked V-AAI-3P.5656
4717 GK5090 estaurOthE (2) he/ He was staked V-API-3S.5681
4717 GK5090 estaurOtai (p1/1) there has had been staked V-RPI-3S.5769
4717 GK5090 estaurOmenos (p1/1) having had been staked V-RPP-NSM.5772
4717 GK5090 estaurOmenon (2) to having had been staked V-RPP-ASM.5772

In the list of Paul's word usage (above), notice the one noun declination, and the two verb parsings
with "p" in parenthesis ... these particular word forms are uniquly Pauline (in the NT); that is, no other
NT author uses the noun in this particular form (nominative, singular, masculine), which occures only in
1Cor1:17, where Paul tells the Corinthians that he came not to baptize, but to hearald Christ on the cross ...

ou gar apesteilen me christos baptizein all euaggelizesthai ouk en sophia logou hina mE kenOthE ho stauros tou christou
"For not to me [the] Anointed had away-positioned to immerse, but to evangel;
not in wisdom of word, so-that there should no[t] be emptied, the stake of the Anointed." (~Robin)

... a verse that always struck me funny, in an odd way, because it always reminds me of Shakespear's Mark Antony,
who says something just the diametrically opposite ... "I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him" ...

But notice, too, that in my translation, I've steered away from not only the more religious word "cross," but also
"baptize," and "Christ" ... I'd only used those terms, in the sentence above, for the sake of more common parlance;
that is, I like my translations to be as literal, concordantly consistent, and accurate as possible ... I'd like to give,
attempt at least, to give the reader a glimpse down through the English to perceive the real underlying Greek words ...

And, by "consistently concordant," I mean that I attempt to be as consistent as possible with the different word families; that is,
if the word "stauros" is, indeed, just a stake (which says nothing, at all, about the crossbeam(s) on that Roman implement),
then when the scriptures refer to the act of such an execution, then the most concordant way of reading the verb "estaurOthE"
is not "crucified," but rather ..."He was staked" ...

By the way, those two uniquely Pauline verbs (above) "estaurOtai" and "estaurOmenos" are found in Gal 6:14 and 3:1 ...

emoi de mE genoito kauchasthai ei mE en tO staurO tou kuriou hEmOn iEsou christou di hou emoi kosmos estaurOtai kagO tO kosmO
"Yet unto me to boast, may it become no[t], if no[t] in the stake of the Lord of us, of Yeshua Anointed,
through Which there has had been staked unto me [the] regulated-world; I-also unto the regulated-world." (~Robin)

O anoEtoi galatai tis humas ebaskanen tE alEtheia mE peithesthai hois kat ophthalmous iEsous christos proegraphE en humin estaurOmenos
"Oh! Uncomprehending Galatians! What [one] to you had bewitched, to no[t] be persuaded unto the truth?
Unto which, according-to [your] eyes, Yeshua Anointed was before-written unto you, in having had been staked!" (~Robin)


Now then, Brenden, tell me true ...
which reading gives you the clearer picture, the more horrific mental appreciation ... that He was crucified ..or... that He was staked
Is it easier for the reader to see down through that old worn-out religious word ..."cross" ...
or does the more transparent word ..."stake" ... enable the reader to better visulize His brutal execution for our sakes?

My goal in tranlating these epistles of Paul, is not only to always be as literal and concordantly consistent as possible,
but even more importantly, to always be ... Christ-centered ... focused on the Anointed, our Savior, Who died for all sins, all failings ... ALL...

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Re: what is 'this hope'?

Post by Paidion » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:29 am

Hi Everyone,

Someone pointed out to me in a private message that my use of the phrase "pretending righteousness" appeared to be directed at Robin as if he were living a sinful life and pretending to be righteous. That was not at all my intent. This was rather my assessment of the substitutionary atonement view (which Robin seems to accept). The view is that you don't have to be actually righteous in God's sight to be acceptable to Him. For you have put on Christ's righteousness so that God does not see your sin but only Christ's righteousness.

I now see that "pretending" was a wrong word choice, since those who accept the substitutionary atonement view are not pretending. They really believe that they are "covered" and therefore immune to God's judgment. I should have used a word such as "non-genuine" or "unreal" as an adjective to modify the meaning of the word "righteousness."

So, Robin, if you took this personally, I want you to know that I regret that through a bad word choice I came across as making a personal attack. I want you to know that this was not at all my intention.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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