Sword? Or Spirit?

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Paidion
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Sword? Or Spirit?

Post by Paidion » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:45 pm

I'm sure we are all familiar with Paul's instruction as recorded in Ephesians 6 to "take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day." I am thinking in particular of verse 17:

...and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. (Ephesians 6:17 ESV)]

You have probably observed children's leaders giving a Bible reference, and then saying, "Draw your trusty sword!" Then each of the children tries to be first in finding the verse in his Bible. This is all based on the concept that the Bible is "the word of God" and that it is "the sword of the Spirit."

One day, I noticed this verse was written differently in the "Recovery Version" of the New Testament:

...and receive the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which Spirit is the word of God. (Ephesians 6:17 Recovery Version)

The translators inserted "Spirit" after "which" for clarification. When I read this I wondered whether it was possible that Paul had indeed identified the Spirit with "the word of God" rather than "sword." So I looked up the passage in Greek. Here is what I found:

και την μαχαιραν του πνευματος ὁ ----ἐστιν ῥημα θεου
and the ---sword of the spirit --which is-----word of God

Notice the Greek for "word" is not "logos" but "hrāma". It might be translated as "speech" or "discourse."


Now "μαχαιραν" (sword) is feminine, where as "πνευματος" (spirit) is neuter. The relative pronoun "ὁ" (which, who) is also neuter. Relative pronouns agree with their antecedent in gender. Therefore the antecedent of "ὁ" must be "πνευματος" rather than "μαχαιραν." so the translators of the Recovery Version are justified in inserting "Spirit" after "which." But it might also have been translated in such a way that this addition would not be required:

...and receive the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit who is the word of God.

But I know of no translator who does so.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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crgfstr1
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Re: Sword? Or Spirit?

Post by crgfstr1 » Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:19 am

Paidion,

What do you think the significance is of the difference?

Maybe that explains:

John 1:1 KJV

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

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Paidion
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Re: Sword? Or Spirit?

Post by Paidion » Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:51 pm

I think the significance of the spirit of God being the "speech" of God, is that it is through his spirit that God speaks to or reveals Himself and his will to man.

I do not understand how this would explain John 1:1. Please elaborate.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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crgfstr1
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Re: Sword? Or Spirit?

Post by crgfstr1 » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:02 am

While I think both are more figurative then literal I see similarities in the two statements. I think this could be read:

In the beginning was the Word (Father), and the Word was with God (Son), and the Word was God (Holy Spirit). I only have a feeling on this but haven't studied it enough to know if this is an accurate idea.

While the bible uses anthropomorphism and analogies to explain God, I think taking it too far makes it harder to understand God.

Here is more on my current thinking on how we are to understand who God is:
http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... &start=154

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willowtree
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Re: Sword? Or Spirit?

Post by willowtree » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:12 pm

Paidion wrote:I'm sure we are all familiar with Paul's instruction as recorded in Ephesians 6 to "take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day." I am thinking in particular of verse 17:

...and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. (Ephesians 6:17 ESV)]

You have probably observed children's leaders giving a Bible reference, and then saying, "Draw your trusty sword!" Then each of the children tries to be first in finding the verse in his Bible. This is all based on the concept that the Bible is "the word of God" and that it is "the sword of the Spirit."

One day, I noticed this verse was written differently in the "Recovery Version" of the New Testament:

...and receive the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which Spirit is the word of God. (Ephesians 6:17 Recovery Version)

The translators inserted "Spirit" after "which" for clarification. When I read this I wondered whether it was possible that Paul had indeed identified the Spirit with "the word of God" rather than "sword." So I looked up the passage in Greek. Here is what I found:

και την μαχαιραν του πνευματος ὁ ----ἐστιν ῥημα θεου
and the ---sword of the spirit --which is-----word of God

Notice the Greek for "word" is not "logos" but "hrāma". It might be translated as "speech" or "discourse."


Now "μαχαιραν" (sword) is feminine, where as "πνευματος" (spirit) is neuter. The relative pronoun "ὁ" (which, who) is also neuter. Relative pronouns agree with their antecedent in gender. Therefore the antecedent of "ὁ" must be "πνευματος" rather than "μαχαιραν." so the translators of the Recovery Version are justified in inserting "Spirit" after "which." But it might also have been translated in such a way that this addition would not be required:

...and receive the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit who is the word of God.

But I know of no translator who does so.
In my time I have heard, and many of us also, about the 'logos' and the word of God. My limited understanding of the term 'hrama' (which I have seen as 'rhema'), however, has been only in a snippet of a conversation from which I understood that the word was used to indicate a direct focused statement - a 'thus saith the Lord' kind of command. If so, the context of a sword in the hand of the Spirit would seem to fit. But the Holy Spirit is not usually portrayed in a combative role, though Jesus said he would convict the world of sin.

Can someone enlighten me about this term 'hrama' and it's contribution to what Paul is trying to convey.

Graeme
If you find yourself between a rock and a hard place, always head for the rock. Ps 62..

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Paidion
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Re: Sword? Or Spirit?

Post by Paidion » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:53 pm

Hi Graeme,

Here are the meanings of the word according to four different Greek lexicons:

ONLINE BIBLE GREEK LEXICON
1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
1a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning
1b) speech, discourse
1b1) what one has said
1c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one’s mind made in words)
1c1) an utterance
1c2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative
1c2a) concerning some occurrence
2) subject matter of speech, thing spoken of
2a) so far forth as it is a matter of narration
2b) so far as it is a matter of command
2c) a matter of dispute, case at law

VARIOUS TRANSLATIONS OF THE WORD IN THE NASB
charge (1), discourse (1), fact (2), matters (1), message (2), nothing* (1), remark (1), say (1), say say (1), saying (1), sayings (3)
statement (6), thing (2), things (4), word (18), words (22).

STRONG'S GREEK LEXICON
an utterance (individually, collectively or specifically); by implication, a matter or topic (especially of narration, command or dispute); with a negative naught whatever: —  + evil, + nothing, saying, word.

ABBOTT-SMITH GREEK LEXICON
1. prop., of that which is said or spoken. (a) a word; Mt 27:14, II Co 12:4... of speech, discourse Lk 7:1, Jo 8:29, Ac 2:14, Rom 10:18, II Pe:3:2... a saying, statement, word of prophecy,instruction, or command. Mt 26:75, Mk 9:22, Lk 1:38, 2:59 [and nine other references]...of that which in the subject of a speech, a thing, matter Lk 1:27m 2:15, Ac 10:37.

I cannot enlighten you about "it's contribution to what Paul is trying to convey."
I can only share my own thoughts on the matter.

...and receive the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit who is the word of God.

Paul said to put on the "whole armor of God in order that you may be able to withstand in the evil day."
Each item of a physical suit of armor represents spiritual assistance:

1. The belt is truth or reality.
2. The breastplate is righteousness.
3. The shoes is the readiness given by the gospel of peace.
4. The shield is faith.
5. The helmet is salvation.
6. The sword is the Holy Spirit who is the revelation, message, instruction, or command of God.

If one's conception of the Holy Spirit is a third Person of the Deity, then #6 may not make sense to him.
But if the Holy Spirit is the extension of the Persons of the Father and the Son, the means by which we receive revelations, messages, instructions, and commands from God, it makes a lot of sense.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

Singalphile
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Re: Sword? Or Spirit?

Post by Singalphile » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:38 pm

Is it possible that the "relative pronoun "ὁ" (which, who) is also neuter" refers not to a single antecedent word, but rather to the whole antecedent "sword of the spirit" clause?
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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