personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

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dwight92070
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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Jul 31, 2016 11:33 pm

njd83,

That was the immediate thing I noticed when I first read your blog, i.e. "the faith of Jesus" vs. "faith in Jesus", which is the NASV, which I believe is more accurate and also agrees with the rest of Scripture. I don't believe the Bible ever tells us to have the same kind of faith that Jesus had, but to have faith IN Jesus and IN God. I am open to correction if anyone can show me the verses that say otherwise. Also, to say that He is our example seems somewhat suspect vs. He is our Lord and our Savior. I may have misunderstood you on that point. WWJD, i.e, What would Jesus do? never seemed Biblical to me. Rather WWJHMD, I.e. What would Jesus have me do? In other words, He is not so much my example as He is my Lord, Savior and Master.

Dwight

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Paidion
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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by Paidion » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:32 pm

Dwight, njd translated verse 26 correctly—the faith OF Jesus. The Greek phrase "πιστεως ιησου" means "faith of Jesus."

The following translations render it as "the faith of Jesus":
Darby
Diaglot
Douay
EMTV (English Majority Text Version)
LO (Living Oracles)
Murdoch
YLT (Young's Literal Translation)

As you requested, here is another verse that also speaks of the faith of Jesus:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the endurance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And here are some verses that speak of "the faith of Christ" or "the faith of Jesus Christ":

Romans 3:22 ...righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ towards all, and upon all those who believe...
Galatians 2:16 but knowing that a man is not justified on the principle of works of law nor but by the faith of Jesus Christ, *we* also have believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified on the principle of the faith of Christ; and not of works of law; because on the principle of works of law no flesh shall be justified.
Galatians 3:22 but the scripture has shut up all things under sin, that the promise, on the principle of the faith of Jesus Christ, should be given to those that believe.
Philippians 3:9 and that I may be found in him, not having my righteousness, which would be on the principle of law, but that which is by faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God through faith...


All of the above quotes are from Darby's translation.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by Homer » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:42 pm

Paidion,

See this short article by a writer who has held both views:

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/tr ... of-christ/

He writes for Christianity Today. I thought you would find his comments about the early church father's understanding to be of interest. Seems to me your view lends support to imputed righteousness.

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dwight92070
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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:56 pm

Good article Homer. Apparently the author there prefers "faith in Christ" vs. "the faith of Christ", after his research.

Paidon, the NASB agrees with you on your first 2 verses, Romans 3:26 (is of the faith of Jesus), and Revelation 3:12 (the faith of Jesus). However both of those verses say "faith in Jesus" in their text with a margin note saying: Literally, "the faith of Jesus". In the other 3 verses you quoted, the NASB says "faith in Christ" or "faith in Jesus".

Two additional verses Galatians 2:20 and Phil. 3:9 are translated "faith in the Son of God", and "faith in Christ" respectively.

Apparently this is not a settled question.

How many times does the Bible teach that we are "in Christ"? If we are in Him, then it seems to me that our faith is also in Him.

Dwight

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Paidion
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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by Paidion » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:18 pm

Dwight, in the Greek text, ALL of the verses I quoted say "faith of" Jesus (or Christ). My quotations were from Darby, who translated all of them correctly.
Paidion

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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by Paidion » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:30 pm

Thanks for the link, Homer. I also have considered the possibility of it being "the faithfulness of Christ."
I thought you would find his comments about the early church father's understanding to be of interest.
Yes, but they would have been of far greater interest if he had quoted the fathers to back up his comments.
Seems to me your view lends support to imputed righteousness.
My view? I haven't expressed a view—only the facts of translation. These facts could be interpreted as supporting imputed righteousness, but I don't think they do.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by Homer » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:21 pm

Seems to me your view lends support to imputed righteousness.

My view? I haven't expressed a view—only the facts of translation.
But your view of the correct translation is opinion. The facts are that it has been translated two ways. And some see the view you hold of the translation as supporting imputed righteousness, a doctrine you deny. To me, that's the irony of your translation.

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Paidion
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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by Paidion » Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:17 pm

But your view of the correct translation is opinion.


There's no opinion about it. Consult any Greek grammar text as to the meaning of the genitive case. For example, in William Mounce's "Basics of Biblical Greek":
Mounce wrote:The genitive case in Greek is the same as the possessive case in English. Instead of adding an "apostrophe s" or using "of," the genitive case endings are added to the word. For example, if the sentence "Everyone breaks the laws of God" were in Greek, "God" would be in the genitive case and have a genitive case ending (chapter 7, section 3).
Nowhere does Mounce suggest, for example, that "God" in the genitive case, can be translated as "in God." The same with all other Greek grammars that I have consulted. In my opinion, those translators who translate "πιστεως χριστου" (χριστου being in the genitive case) as "faith in Christ" are allowing their theological bias to influence their translation. The expression can mean only "faith of Christ" or "Christ's faith." The fact that more translations render it as "faith in Christ" is no justification for so translating it.

You may also want to check out this pdf file. In the Biblical examples given, how many times do you find "of" in them? (Answer: nearly all). And how many times do you find "in"? (Answer: none.)

Most Common Uses of the Genitive Case in Greek

Even though the translation "faith of Christ" is thought to support substitutionary atonement, I would not opt for "faith in Christ" even if I believed it to be more consistent with my theology. I would rather be honest.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by Homer » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:00 pm

Is this not an objective genitive?

Mark 11:22-24 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

22. And Jesus *answered saying to them, “Have faith in God. 23. Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him. 24. Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.

How would "faith of God" make sense in this case when the context is an exhortation to believe (or trust) in God?

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dwight92070
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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:10 am

Paidon,

I have looked up all the verses you mentioned in the Nestle/Marshall Interlinear Greek-English New Testament and I agree with what you are saying on those. However, here are some other verses that are translated as follows in this same book:

Acts 20:21 - faith toward (in) Jesus; Acts 24:24 - faith in Christ; Acts 26:18 - faith in Me (God speaking); Epesians 1:15 - faith in the Lord Jesus; Colossians 1:4 - faith in Christ; Colossians 2:5 - faith in Christ; Hebrews 6:1 - faith toward God; 1 Peter 1:21 - faith and hope in God.

Two other verses, 1Timothy 3:13 and verse 15 speak of the faith that is in Christ, so these verses could be taken 2 ways.

But the first list of 8 verses shows that "faith in Christ" or "toward Jesus" are Biblical terms.

Dwight

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