How should it be translated?

dizerner

Re: How should it be translated?

Post by dizerner » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:18 am

Paidion wrote:
Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? If anyone φθειριε God’s temple, God will φθειριε him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.(1 Corinthians 3: 16,17)
The first thing to understand is that Paul is not addressing individuals. The word "you" and "are" are both plural in both instances of "you are" (as well as the single word "you"). Paul is addressing the people as a group, who are part of the assembly at Corinth.

So "God's temple" is God's Assembly (or "Church" if you insist). As for the person who φθειριε the Assembly, God will do the same to him, according to Paul. So one would expect that the first clause in 1 Corinthians 3:17, φθειριε would be translated by the same English word. But no, the following translations use two different English words in the translation of φθειριε:

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy... (King James Version)
If any one corrupt the temple of God, him shall God destroy...(Darby)
But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy... (Douay)
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him... (NKJV)
God will destroy anyone who defiles his temple...(Rotherham)
If any man defileth the temple of God, him shall God destroy...(RWebster)

This is puzzling, is it not? Isn't the meaning of "destroy" quite different from that of "defile" or "corrupt" or "violate"?
Some translators understood the inconsistency of translating the word with two different English words, since the verse itself seems to indicate that God will do the same thing to the offender, as the offender did to the "temple" (i.e. to God's Assembly).
The translators of the following versions render both instances of the word as "destroy":
ASV, Diaglot, EMTV, ESV, LO, NASB, RV, and Williams.

But does the word even mean "destroy"? Let's examine the other 5 instances in which the word is used in the NT. The following is the NKJV rendering of the word:

1 Corinthians 15:33 Do not be deceived: "Evil company corrupts good habits."
2 Corinthians 7:2 Open your hearts to us. We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have cheated no one.
2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Ephesians 4:22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves .
Revelation 19:2 "For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her."

Like the NKJV, several other translations render the word as the verb "corrupts" (or "corrupt" if the subject is plural).
So why can it not be so translated in the both instances of the verb in 1 Corinthians 3:17?
If anyone corrupts God’s temple, God will corrupt him.
I just wanted to point out, since I regularly read Rotheram's, that your version is incorrect. He translates here:

1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone doth mar the shrine of God, God, will mar him; for the shrine of God is holy, - and such are ye.

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Paidion
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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Paidion » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:19 pm

How does the fact that you regularly read Rotherham, and that he translates the word as "mar" make "my version" incorrect?
Paidion

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dizerner

Re: How should it be translated?

Post by dizerner » Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:40 pm

You claimed to quote "Rotherham." Perhaps you didn't notice you claimed to quote Rotherham? It appears you actually quoted Phillip's translation and put the name "Rotherham" on it.

I apologize for any confusion, I thought my post was rather obviously self-evident that I was addressing your quote of "Rotherham." Perhaps now it will be understandable that I addressed your claimed quote of "Rotherham"?

I hope so.

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Paidion
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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Paidion » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:40 pm

Thank you, Dizerner. I use the Online Bible Program that I have downloaded to my computer. It has many translations (including Rotherham). I mistakenly assigned Rotherham's name to Philip's translation. I didn't understand what you were saying in your first post about it, but you made it very clear in your second. I have corrected the post in which the error occurred.

Thank you again, Dizerner for pointing out my error.
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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Homer » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:48 pm

Paidion,

I wrote:
Consider the sematic range of our word "board". As a woodworker I first think of a piece of lumber. But it could refer to getting on a ship. Or to payment for room and board. Or the board of directors. Or a maneuver by a hockey player, among several other definitions.
You replied:
And what if you found every occurrence of the word "board" in the English language as referring to "a piece of lumber"? Would you still use the word to refer to "getting on a ship" just because it accidentally fits that context?
But I have knowledge of the semantic range of the word "board" and its many uses. I have heard it used more than six times and in more than one context. You have cited only a handful of examples of phtheiro and claim the translators are in error because they do not translate the word the same in every occurrence, as though it was strictly limited to one meaning. Experts in the Greek language cite the LXX, Philo, and Josephus as proof the phtheiro word group had a much broader range of meaning including destroy and kill.
You assumption that the semantic range includes "destroy" is based upon nothing except the fact that the translation "destroy" makes sense in some contexts. That is not a sufficient reason to so translate it.
The greatest weight given to assigning meaning to a word is context. A man who corrupts the church, God's temple, is corrupt. It makes no sense to say God will corrupt him after the fact. He is already corrupted. It makes perfect sense to say God will destroy him based on the Jewish understanding of the sanctity of the temple of God.
Similarly, you know that the usual meaning of the verb "φθειρω" is "to corrupt." You also know that the usual word for "to destroy" is "απολλυμι."
So you are now admitting, after years of argument in defense of your universalism, that apollumi does not primarily mean "lose", but to destroy? :o Actually the meaning is destroy utterly.

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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Tychicus » Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:26 am

Paidion and Homer,

For the sake of completeness, 2 Pet 2:12 also has φθείρω. It is translated "destroy" in most translations I have looked at. Regarding 1 Cor 3:17, the ESV, NASV, NET, NIV, NRSV have "destroy" in both places. Most of these translations also have "destroy" in Jude 1:10.

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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Paidion » Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:55 pm

Jude 1:10

"Destroyed", "are destroyed", or "destroy themselves": ASV, EMTV, ESV, HCSB, LO, NASB, RSV, WEB, Williams

"Corrupt themselves" or "are corrupted": AV, Darby, Diaglot, Douay, Murdoch, NKJV, RWebster, YLT, CLV

"Depraved": Phillips

"Bringing themselves to ruin": Rotherham
Paidion

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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Paidion » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:11 pm

2Peter 2:12

Now these, as irrational animals, born naturally for capture and corruption, calumniating that in which they are ignorant in their corruption, also shall be corrupted. (CLV)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Homer » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:59 pm

Paidion,

“A man convinced against his will
Is of the same opinion still”

No amount of proof will change your mind. I give up.

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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Paidion » Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:16 pm

No amount of proof was given.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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