How should it be translated?

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njd83
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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by njd83 » Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:17 am

“and a third of the creatures which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships were destroyed [διαφθείρω].” (Revelation 8:9, NASB95)
““And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy[ruin,διαφθείρω] those who destroy[ruin,διαφθείρω] the earth.”” (Revelation 11:18, NASB95)
I believe διαφθείρω or φθειρω means to be "ruined or corrupted" and that it definitely stops short of the other word which means to "destroy/destruction", ἀaπώλεια or ολεθρος
““The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction[ἀaπώλεια]... (Revelation 17:8a, NASB95)
I also again get help for understanding from "outside" the cannon books like Shepherd of Hermas, which the early church said was "scripture" although a "secondary" type of scripture, not written by an apostle or prophet, but still as accurate as can be
6.1 The Shepherd

61.1 Sitting in my house and glorifying the Lord for all which I had seen, and inquiring about the commandments[ἐeντολή] because they were beautiful and powerful and cheerful and glorious and able to save the soul[ψυχή] of a person, I was saying in myself, “I will be blessed if I might walk in these commandments, and whoever might walk in these will be blessed.” 2 While I said these things in myself, I suddenly saw him sitting beside me and saying these things: “Why are you double-souled[διψυχέω] about the commandments which I commanded you? They are beautiful. Do not be at all double-souled, but clothe yourself with the faith of the Lord and you will walk in them, for I will strengthen you in them. 3 These commandments are advantageous to those who are about to repent, for if they do not walk in them, their repentance is in vain. 4 Therefore, those who repent, do away with the wickednesses of this world which [wears you out][ἐeκτρίβω], and having clothed yourselves with every virtue[ἀaρετή] of righteousness you will be able to keep these commandments and no longer add to your sins. Therefore walk in these commandments of mine and you will live to God. All these things have been spoken to you by me.” 5 And after he spoke these things with me, he said to me, “Let us go into the countryside and I will show you the shepherd[s][plural in greek] of the sheep.” “Let us go,” I said, “sir.” And we came to a field and he showed a young shepherd to me, wearing a suit of clothes, saffron-yellow in color. 6 And he was feeding very many sheep, and sheep these seemed well fed, were also very frisky, and were cheerful, leaping for joy here and there. And the shepherd himself was very cheerful over his flock, and ⌊the very appearance of the shepherd⌋  was very cheerful and he was running about among the sheep.

6.2 The Sheep of the Shepherd

62.1 And he said to me, “Do you see this shepherd?” “I see,” I said, “sir,” “This,” he said, “is the angel[messenger, ἄaγγελος] of luxury and deception. This one [wears out] the souls of the servants of God and turns them away from the truth, deceiving them with the evil lusts in which they are destroyed[ἀaπόλλυμι]. 2 For they forget the commandments of the living God and walk in deception and worthless luxury, and they are destroyed[ἀaπόλλυμι] by this angel, some to death[θάνατος] and others to [corruption][καταφθορά].” 3 I said to him, “Sir, I do not know what is ‘to death’ and what is ‘to corruption[καταφθορά].’” “Listen,” he said, “The sheep which you saw cheerful and leaping for joy, these are those which have been drawn away from God completely[εiς τέλος] and have given over themselves to the lusts of this world. Among these, then, there is no repentance of life because they added to their sins and concerning the name of God, they blasphemed against it. Therefore death is for such as these. 4 But you saw the sheep which were not leaping for joy but were feeding in one place, these are the ones who have given themselves over to luxuries and deception, but concerning the Lord, they blasphemed against him in no way. Therefore these have been corrupted[καταφθείρω] from the truth; in these there is hope of repentance, in which they are able to live. Corruption[καταφθείρω], then, has some hope of renewal, but death has age-during/eternal[αiώνιος] destruction[ἀaπώλεια]. 5 Again I went on a little ways, and he showed me a great shepherd, like a wild man in appearance, wearing a white goatskin and he had a leather pouch upon his shoulder and, having a very gnarled and knotty  staff and a great whip. And he had a very bitter look, so bitter that I was afraid of him, because he had a look such as this. 6 Therefore this shepherd was taking the sheep from the young shepherd, those sheep which were frisky and well fed but were not leaping for joy, and he put them into someplace steep and thorny and full of thistles, so that the sheep could not disentangle themselves from the thorns and thistles, but were entangled in the thorns and thistles. 7 So these sheep, being entangled, were grazing in the thorns and thistles and they were very miserable, being beaten by him, and he was driving them about here and there, and he gave them no rest, and those sheep were not at all at peace.

6.3 The Angel of Punishment

63.1 Therefore upon seeing them so beaten and miserable, I began to grieve for them because they were so tormented[βασανίζω] and had no relief  at all. 2 I said to the shepherd who was speaking with me, “Sir, who is this shepherd who is so merciless and bitter and has no compassion at all on these sheep?” “This,” he said, “is the angel of punishment[τιμωρία]. But he is one of the righteous angels, and is appointed over punishment. 3 Therefore he takes those who have strayed from God and walked in the lusts and deceptions of this world and he punishes them, just as is proper, with severe and various kinds of punishments.” 4 “I would like,” I said, “sir, to know these various kinds of punishments, what kinds they are.” “Listen,” he said, “to the various kinds of torments and punishments. The torments are belonging to daily life, for some are punished with loss, and others with deprivations, and others with various illnesses, and others with every kind of disturbance, and others are insulted by worthless people and suffer many other things. 5 For many, being unsettled in their intentions, begin many things and nothing at all succeeds for them. And they say they do not prosper in their deeds, and it does not enter into their heart that they have done evil[πονηρός] deeds, but they blame the Lord. 6 Therefore, when they are afflicted[θλίβω] with every tribulation[θλiψις], then they are handed over to me for good instruction[παιδεία] and are strengthened in the faith of the Lord. And the rest of the days of their life they serve the Lord with a pure heart. But/And if they repent, then it enters into their heart, those evil deeds which they did, and then they glorify God, saying that he is a righteous judge and they suffered righteously, each according to his deeds. And for the remaining time they serve the Lord with their pure heart, and they will prosper in [all of their deeds],  receiving from the Lord all things, whatever they ask for. And then they glorify the Lord that they were handed over to me, and no longer suffer evil in any way.”

-Shepherd of Hermas - Parable 6.1-6.3
So there is a defining or clearing up of the meaning of these words somewhat, but some wont discover that because of various reasons... =(
Last edited by njd83 on Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:07 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Paidion
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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Paidion » Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:44 pm

njd, you wrote:I believe διαφθείρω or φθειρω means to be "ruined or corrupted" and that it definitely stops short of the other word which means to "destroy/destruction", ἀπώλεια or ολεθρος
That is how I understand it as well, njd. I think even the lexicons bring out this distinction.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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