How should it be translated?

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Homer
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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Homer » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:42 pm

Hi Paidion,
As had been pointed out by several, Paul meant that what the offender did to the temple, God will do the same to him. That's why he used the same Greek word.
No problem with that. A false teacher can destroy a local assembly, so in the end God will destroy him.

IMO the NASB has it best:

1 Corinthians 3:17 (NASB)

17. If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

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Paidion
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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Paidion » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:09 pm

Okay, I am aware of that translation. I consult the NASB frequently.

The NASB is consistent in translating both instances of the Greek word in the sentence with the same English word "destroy(s)".
But even that is questionable, since the NASB translates only 1 out of the 6 other occurrences of the word in the New Testament as "destroyed", 4 or the 6 with some form of "corrupt," and the other occurrence as "led astray."

Both Greek lexicons as well as most of the contexts where the word "φθερω" occurs, indicate that the word normally means "corrupt(s)."
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Homer » Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:35 pm

Paidion,

Been meaning to get back to you. I think you have made an error in logic by limiting the semantic range of φθειριε (phtheiro), For example TDNT cites in Philo, Test. XII, as phtheiro having the meanings of ruin, corrupt, destroy, kill.

I agree with you that both instances in 1 Cor. 3:17 have a similar meaning. And all you need to do solve the problem is to consider what Paul meant in his warning. There is an analogy made in the context between the church (or even a local assembly) and the temple. In the OT the person who desecrated the tabernacle or temple was to be put to death. The temple was God's sanctuary. Today God is present among His assembled people. It is easy to see the train of thought in Paul's mind: physical temple desecrated, perpetrator destroyed. Spiritual temple destroyed, perpetrator destroyed. To the Jewish mind it would be clear.
Last edited by Homer on Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Paidion
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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Paidion » Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:44 pm

In my opinion, "perpetrator destroyed" is much more extreme than Paul intended.
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Homer
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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Homer » Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:09 pm

In my opinion, "perpetrator destroyed" is much more extreme than Paul intended.
I believe that is exactly what was intended but that does not preclude the possibility of repentance.

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Paidion
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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Paidion » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:09 am

I believe that is exactly what was intended...
On what basis?
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Homer » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:12 pm

I believe that is exactly what was intended...


On what basis?
As stated Paul is using analogies in the context of 1 Cor. 3. Physical temple, God's presence, desecrate temple, death for perpetrator. Spiritual temple (church universal or local assembly), God's presence, destroy church, destruction for perpetrator.

I suspect your paradigm causes great difficulty with this passage, as many others. Thus you favor translations that seem implausible, such as the perpetrator being corrupted. Seems to me he was corrupted prior to his offense to the temple, else it would not have happened.

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Paidion
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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Paidion » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:08 pm

The translation I favour is not based on my paradigm (whatever you consider that to be). I favour "corrupt" as a translation rather than "destroy" only because that's the way the word is used in the other six verses in which it appears in the New Testament.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Homer » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:13 am

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
only because that's the way the word is used in the other six verses in which it appears in the New Testament.
And you come up with nonsense. You have made a error in logic known as limiting semantic range. Just because it is translated one way in other places does not mean it should be the same way in the subject verse.

Consider the sematic range of our word "board". As a woodworker I first think of a piece of lumber. But it could refer to getting on a ship. Or to payment for room and board. Or the board of directors. Or a maneuver by a hockey player, among several other definitions.

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Paidion
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Re: How should it be translated?

Post by Paidion » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:23 pm

You consider my approach to be nonsense; I consider yours to be non-veridical.
You wrote:Consider the sematic range of our word "board". As a woodworker I first think of a piece of lumber. But it could refer to getting on a ship. Or to payment for room and board. Or the board of directors. Or a maneuver by a hockey player, among several other definitions.
And what if you found every occurrence of the word "board" in the English language as referring to "a piece of lumber"? Would you still use the word to refer to "getting on a ship" just because it accidentally fits that context?

You assumption that the semantic range includes "destroy" is based upon nothing except the fact that the translation "destroy" makes sense in some contexts. That is not a sufficient reason to so translate it.

Here is a concrete example in English of what you are doing.

"The roses in the garden are very beautiful!" Centuries into the future, English becomes defunct. Some who know only Newspeak, but who study "ancient" English run across this sentence. They are aware of the meaning of "rose," but they are also aware of a beautiful purple flower that once grew in gardens. They decided that the semantic range for "rose" also includes this beautiful purple flower (though they also know that the purple flowers were also called "peonies")—simply because it makes sense to in the sentence "The roses in the garden are very beautiful!"

Similarly, you know that the usual meaning of the verb "φθειρω" is "to corrupt." You also know that the usual word for "to destroy" is "απολλυμι." But since "destroy" makes sense as a translation of "φθειρω" in the following sentence, you decide that its semantic range includes the meaning "destroy."

εἰ τις τον ναον τοθ θεου φθειρε φθειρε τουτον ο θεος
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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