Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. Verse Tool: show

"Behold I come soon"

Re: "Behold I come soon"

Postby psimmond » Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:00 pm

dwight92070, I'm not sure why you link "weeping and gnashing of teeth" to an end of the world judgment rather that the judgment God brought on the unfaithful Jews when he destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD.

And I honestly can't see how you can say the verses I gave don't mention Jesus coming back quickly: "When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." This is Jesus telling his disciples he'll return before they visit all the towns of Israel with Jesus' message. And Matthew 16:28 lets his disciples know some of them will die before he returns, but some will still be living: "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen
User avatar
psimmond
 
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:31 pm
Location: Sharpsburg, GA

Re: "Behold I come soon"

Postby dwight92070 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:33 pm

psimmond wrote:dwight92070, I'm not sure why you link "weeping and gnashing of teeth" to an end of the world judgment rather that the judgment God brought on the unfaithful Jews when he destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Dwight speaking: Because Jesus did that repeatedly: Matthew 8:11-12 says many will come and sit at the same table as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven but the unbelievers (at the same time) would be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Obviously the patriarchs are in heaven now and we will join them even up to and beyond the end of the age, which is His 2nd coming. Matthew 13:40-42: ... so shall it be at the END of the age ... all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness will be thrown into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Verse 49-50 of that same chapter gives us the same truth and Matthew 22:13, 24:51, and 25:30. All of these appear to be referring to the END of the age, when Christ returns and all will be judged.

psimmond speaking: And Matthew 16:28 lets his disciples know some of them will die before he returns, but some will still be living: "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”


Dwight speaking: Which of the 12 disciples will still be alive (i.e. they have not tasted death) when Jesus comes the 2nd time? They have all died, so obviously the answer is none of them. So, obviously Jesus is not referring to His 2nd coming, but some other event - possibly His transfiguration 6 days later or the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. So there is no suggestion here that His 2nd coming is imminent.
dwight92070
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: "Behold I come soon"

Postby dwight92070 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:00 pm

Correction on my last paragraph. Jesus apparently was not referring to His transfiguration, because He implies that some of them WOULD die before He came, and we know that none of them died during the next 6 days before His transfiguration. That narrows the possibilities down as to what he is referring to. Some might say He was speaking of Pentecost, others the destruction of Jerusalem, but we know He cannot be referring to His 2nd coming, because He has not come back yet, and they have all died.
dwight92070
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: "Behold I come soon"

Postby psimmond » Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:47 pm

Hi Dwight,
How do you know none of Jesus' disciples lived till 70AD? My understanding is that we don't have certain dates for their deaths.
psimmond wrote:
dwight92070, I'm not sure why you link "weeping and gnashing of teeth" to an end of the world judgment rather that the judgment God brought on the unfaithful Jews when he destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Dwight speaking: Because Jesus did that repeatedly: Matthew 8:11-12 says many will come and sit at the same table as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven but the unbelievers (at the same time) would be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Obviously the patriarchs are in heaven now and we will join them even up to and beyond the end of the age, which is His 2nd coming. Matthew 13:40-42: ... so shall it be at the END of the age ... all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness will be thrown into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Verse 49-50 of that same chapter gives us the same truth and Matthew 22:13, 24:51, and 25:30. All of these appear to be referring to the END of the age, when Christ returns and all will be judged.


I don't think it's obvious that the patriarchs were in heaven while Jesus was on earth (if that's what you're saying) or that they're in heaven now. I believe Revelation teaches the dead will be resurrected just prior to the final judgment. And I also think the passage you referred to with the centurion is also speaking of God's judgment in 70AD. Jesus said he would come in his kingdom while some of his disciples were still living, so when he talks with the centurion about the kingdom, I see no reason to imagine Jesus is talking about a different kingdom thousands of years in the future. I think if you read Jesus' words in their first-century context, he was telling people that God's kingdom was coming soon and the faithful would be "saved" while there would be weeping, gnashing of teeth, and destruction for the unfaithful.
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen
User avatar
psimmond
 
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:31 pm
Location: Sharpsburg, GA

Re: "Behold I come soon"

Postby dwilkins » Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:09 pm

I wrote a short book called "Preterist Time Statements" where I talk about timing language and catalog more than 350 examples (I've found more, and different types, since) of statements saying that his "coming" would be in the lifetimes of his first generation of followers. I'm not aware of anyone arguing that there are any statements explicitly predicting a far future "coming". Theologians seem to be in agreement that the explicit statements clearly describe a "soon" coming.

The question is, should these statements be taken as simply idealistic admonitions to be ready in all generations. If you think any of the time statements should be taken literally then you have to option other than to conclude that either scripture is in error at some point, or Jesus came as predicted. If you think all of the time statements should be spiritualized then you don't have to worry about it.

Doug
dwilkins
 
Posts: 646
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:54 pm

Re: "Behold I come soon"

Postby dwight92070 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:12 pm

With all due respect, I am bowing out of this discussion. It's one thing to discuss a Bible topic and hear other viewpoints, but as I'm sure many here can attest to, it's too easy to waste countless hours beating an issue to death, with neither side budging an inch. Are we on this forum to win an argument or to learn and edify others? I know I have been guilty of the former, but, God willing, no more. Paul admonished Timothy, I believe, not to wrangle about words, which leads to the ruin of the hearers, rather than edifying either party.
dwight92070
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: "Behold I come soon"

Postby psimmond » Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:11 pm

Dwight,
I don't think the primary purpose of this forum is to get the other side to abandon their beliefs and accept yours. Over the years I've benefited greatly from the views of other members (although I often disagreed with them) and I suspect you have as well. Ian asked a question and you, I, and others have expressed our views. Maybe one or more of us said something that Ian will find helpful, maybe not. :)

That being said, if you feel you've said all you want to say on the subject and anything further would just be wasting time, it makes perfect sense to stop posting.
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen
User avatar
psimmond
 
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:31 pm
Location: Sharpsburg, GA

Previous

Return to Revelation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest