Slain before the foundation of the world...

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dizerner

Slain before the foundation of the world...

Post by dizerner » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:20 pm

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robbyyoung
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Re: Slain before the foundation of the world...

Post by robbyyoung » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:45 pm

1 Peter 1:20 gives us the literal meaning of the decree (title of the post). Which is HE was chosen before creation. So no I don't mean HE was literally slain, but HE was necessarily by decree.

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TheEditor
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Re: Slain before the foundation of the world...

Post by TheEditor » Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:19 pm


Alternate renderings of the verse:


(ASV) And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.
(CEV) The beast was worshiped by everyone whose name wasn't written before the time of creation in the book of the Lamb who was killed.
(LEB) And all those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name is not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.
(WmsNT) All the inhabitants of the earth whose names, from the foundation of the world, have not been written in the slaughtered Lamb's book of life, will worship him.
(WEB (R)) All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been killed.

So, is it a reference to the "slaughtering" of the Lamb, or the "Book of Life" from the "foundation of the world"?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Paidion
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Re: Slain before the foundation of the world...

Post by Paidion » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:08 am

The Revised Standard Version and the English Standard Version translate Rev 13:8 it similarly:
And all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb that was slain.
However, the order of the Greek words would seem to favour "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world (or cosmos)". Also the Greek says "FROM" the foundation of the world. The Greek preposition "απο" NEVER means "before". This may simply mean that it was in the mind of God from the time of the foundation of the cosmos, until the Lamb of God was actually slain, to provide for the salvation of the mankind through the death of the Messiah.
Paidion

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robbyyoung
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Re: Slain before the foundation of the world...

Post by robbyyoung » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:28 am

Paidion wrote:The Revised Standard Version and the English Standard Version translate Rev 13:8 it similarly:
And all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb that was slain.
However, the order of the Greek words would seem to favour "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world (or cosmos)". Also the Greek says "FROM" the foundation of the world. The Greek preposition "απο" NEVER means "before". This may simply mean that it was in the mind of God from the time of the foundation of the cosmos, until the Lamb of God was actually slain, to provide for the salvation of the mankind through the death of the Messiah.
1 Peter 1:20 coupled with the question at hand should clear it up, don't you think? If not, why not?

God Bless.

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TheEditor
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Re: Slain before the foundation of the world...

Post by TheEditor » Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:44 am

I've always found these verses difficult no matter how I look at them. What was the "founding of the world"? Was it the "kosmos"? If so, what part of it? The physical universe? The creation of man? The "founding of the world" as we know it through the birth of the first human (Cain)?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dizerner

Re: Slain before the foundation of the world...

Post by dizerner » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:02 pm

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Re: Slain before the foundation of the world...

Post by Paidion » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:43 pm

Robby Young wrote:1 Peter 1:20 coupled with the question at hand should clear it up, don't you think? If not, why not?
Why would it? To be foreknown is not tantamount to having been chosen beforehand or predestined.
He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for your sake... (1 Peter 1:20)
The Online Bible Greek Lexicon defines the Greek verb "προγινοσκω" (to foreknow) as "to have knowledge beforehand."

Paul was foreknown by his fellow Jews. Does that imply that his fellow jews chose him, or predestinated him to work in his ministry? Paul said:

My manner of life from my youth, which was spent from the beginning among my own nation at Jerusalem, all the Jews know. They knew (προγινοσκω) me from the first, if they were willing to testify, that according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. (Acts 26:4,5 NKJV)

From this, the most obvious meaning of Jesus having been foreknown before the foundation of the world (or cosmos) is that God knew Him, knew all about Him prior to creation—long before He knew Him as a human being that walked the earth.
Paidion

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Re: Slain before the foundation of the world...

Post by robbyyoung » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:16 pm

Paidion wrote:
Robby Young wrote:1 Peter 1:20 coupled with the question at hand should clear it up, don't you think? If not, why not?
Why would it? To be foreknown is not tantamount to having been chosen beforehand or predestined.
He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for your sake... (1 Peter 1:20)
The Online Bible Greek Lexicon defines the Greek verb "προγινοσκω" (to foreknow) as "to have knowledge beforehand."

Paul was foreknown by his fellow Jews. Does that imply that his fellow jews chose him, or predestinated him to work in his ministry? Paul said:

My manner of life from my youth, which was spent from the beginning among my own nation at Jerusalem, all the Jews know. They knew (προγινοσκω) me from the first, if they were willing to testify, that according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. (Acts 26:4,5 NKJV)

From this, the most obvious meaning of Jesus having been foreknown before the foundation of the world (or cosmos) is that God knew Him, knew all about Him prior to creation—long before He knew Him as a human being that walked the earth.
Paidion, what in the world are you disagreeing with me about? Both verses say, "before the foundation of the world", the difference is "slain & chosen or foreknowledge" which I don't have a problem with.


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