Did God die on the Cross?

[jriccitelli]

All Justin was declaring and defending was the fact that 'God' could be in two places at once, and not limited by anything or place. Justin stated in the letter he believed in One and Only One God, at the same time defending that Jesus is this One God. Justin is just using Abraham's visit as one example of God being on earth and heaven at the same time, there are other Theophanies, and Christophanies, if you will.

[Paidion]

I will quote from Justin, and you, the readers of this thread, can judge for yourselves. In his dialogue with Trypho and his companions, in the last of ch 126, the whole of ch 127, and the first part of ch 128, Justin Martyr wrote:

For thus the Scripture says: `And the Lord said to Moses Will the Lord's hand not be sufficient? thou shall know now whether my word shall conceal thee or not.' And again, in other words, it thus says: `But the Lord spoke unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan: the Lord thy God, who goeth before thy face, He shall cut off the nations. These and other such sayings are recorded by the lawgiver and by the prophets; and I suppose that I have stated sufficiently, that wherever God says, `God went up from Abraham, or, `The Lord spake to Moses, and `The Lord came down to behold the tower which the sons of men had built, or when `God shut Noah into the ark, you must not imagine that the unbegotten God Himself came down or went up from any place. For the ineffable Father and Lord of all neither has come to any place, nor walks, nor sleeps, nor rises up, but remains in His own place, wherever that is, quick to behold and quick to hear, having neither eyes nor ears, but being of indescribable might; and He sees all things, and knows all things, and none of us escapes His observation; and He is not moved or confined to a spot in the whole world, for He existed before the world was made. How, then, could He talk with any one, or be seen by any one, or appear on the smallest portion of the earth, when the people at Sinai were not able to look even on the glory of Him who was sent from Him; and Moses himself could not enter into the tabernacle which he had erected, when it was filled with the glory of God; and the priest could not endure to stand before the temple when Solomon conveyed the ark into the house in Jerusalem which he had built for it? Therefore neither Abraham, nor Isaac, nor Jacob, nor any other man, saw the Father and ineffable Lord of all, and also of Christ, but [saw] Him who was according to His will His Son, being God, and the Angel because He ministered to His will; whom also it pleased Him to be born man by the Virgin; who also was fire when He conversed with Moses from the bush. Since, unless we thus comprehend the Scriptures, it must follow that the Father and Lord of all had not been in heaven when what Moses wrote took place: `And the Lord rained upon Sodom fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven; and again, when it is thus said by David: `Lift up your gates, ye rulers; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting gates; and the King of glory shall enter; and again, when He says: `The Lord says to my Lord, Sit at My right hand, till I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.

And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said." Then I repeated once more all that I had previously quoted from Exodus, about the vision in the bush, and the naming of Joshua, and continued: "And do not suppose, sirs, that I am speaking superfluously when I repeat these words frequently: but it is because I know that some wish to anticipate these remarks, and to say that the power sent from the Father of all which appeared to Moses, or to Abraham, or to Jacob, is called an Angel because He came to men (for by Him the commands of the Father have been proclaimed to men); is called Glory, because He appears in a vision sometimes that cannot be borne; is called a Man, and a human being, because He appears strayed in such forms as the Father pleases; and they call Him the Word, because He carries tidings from the Father to men: but maintain that this power is indivisible and inseparable from the Father, just as they say that the light of the sun on earth is indivisible and inseparable from the sun in the heavens; as when it sinks, the light sinks along with it; so the Father, when He chooses, say they, causes His power to spring forth, and when He chooses, He makes it return to Himself. In this way, they teach, He made the angels. But it is proved that there are angels who always exist, and are never reduced to that form out of which they sprang. And that this power which the prophetic word calls God, as has been also amply demonstrated, and Angel, is not numbered [as different] in name only like the light of the sun but is indeed something numerically distinct, I have discussed briefly in what has gone before; when I asserted that this power was begotten from the Father, by His power and will, but not by abscission, as if the essence of the Father were divided; as all other things partitioned and divided are not the same after as before they were divided: and, for the sake of example, I took the case of fires kindled from a fire, which we see to be distinct from it, and yet that from which many can be kindled is by no means made less, but remains the same.

[jriccitelli]

“… nor any other man, saw the Father and ineffable Lord of all, and also of Christ, but [saw] Him who was according to His will His Son, being God”… “And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said" (Justin)

I do not know how you read 'two Yahwehs' into this. Justin clearly states Jesus is God, and Justin is trying to explain that God is not simply a man, vision, or energy that comes down to earth, but that Jesus is indeed God who came to earth. And that Jesus on earth is not ‘all’ that God is, or that God did not vacate heaven when in the form of a man or angel:

‘I repeat these words frequently: but it is because I know that some wish to anticipate these remarks, and to say that the power sent from the Father of all which appeared to Moses, or to Abraham, or to Jacob, is called an Angel… but maintain that this power is indivisible and inseparable from the Father, just as they say that the light of the sun on earth is indivisible” (Justin)

Justin is explaining that God cannot be reduced to an energy or essence that is not God Himself, or separate from God, just because Jesus can be on earth, at Sodom, with Moses, with Abraham, and be God at the same time, as well as in heaven.

I could not even find the word Yahweh or Jehovah in the excerpt you posted from Justin: please underline ‘where’ you are getting this idea from.

[TheEditor]

I could not even find the word Yahweh or Jehovah in the excerpt you posted from Justin: please underline ‘where’ you are getting this idea from.

I think Paidion was originally quoting the OT account when he wrote that. Perhaps a non tetragrammaton-excised translation would help:

(Genesis 19:23-24) The sun had gone forth over the land when Lot arrived at Zo′ar. Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens, upon Sod′om and upon Gomor′rah.

Regards, Brenden.

[jriccitelli]

Justin Martyr said in his discussion with Trypho and other Jewish men, that the appearance to Abraham of Yahweh ("Jehovah" if you will) was the actual appearance of the Son of God. He indicated that the Son of God shared the name "Yahweh" with the Father, by pointing out the two different divine Individuals mentioned in Gen 19:24, each of which was called "Yahweh"—One in heaven, the source of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and One one earth, the means by which the destruction was wrought.' (Paidion, pg.15, Jan 20)

This is the Justin passage I am familiar with, but maybe Paidion was thinking of another passage. Still I do not see where Justin 'indicated that the Son of God shared the name "Yahweh" with the Father' or 'two different divine Individuals'. Nevertheless, if the person on earth was God, the Father, or His Spirit, the scriptures do make the point that God comes and visits with men in the form of a being, this happens almost a dozen different times. So God has certainly made a point that He can appear in the form of a man. And that is the point. This doesn't necessarily always have to be Jesus - but it is the Lord God who appears, and no one else but Jesus fits this description.