God is Love and the Trinity
- 21centpilgrim
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:17 pm
Re: God is Love and the Trinity
The LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD, a God merciful and gracious,
Here God is proclaiming His name to Moses, it is who He is.
Must God always have a way to act out His mercy and grace for Him to be truly merciful and gracious? If his grace and mercy were not displayed from all eternity past does that call into question the trustworthiness of Him telling us the He is merciful and gracious?
Here God is proclaiming His name to Moses, it is who He is.
Must God always have a way to act out His mercy and grace for Him to be truly merciful and gracious? If his grace and mercy were not displayed from all eternity past does that call into question the trustworthiness of Him telling us the He is merciful and gracious?
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.
Re: God is Love and the Trinity
If God said, "Prior to creation, my grace and mercy were displayed," we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.21centpilgrim wrote: If his grace and mercy were not displayed from all eternity past does that call into question the trustworthiness of Him telling us the He is merciful and gracious?
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen
~Garry Friesen
- dwight92070
- Posts: 1550
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am
Re: God is Love and the Trinity
Why would it even be said that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit did not eternally co-exist? If they are each God and all three are God, then they must have always co-existed.
Re: God is Love and the Trinity
Why would it even be said that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit did not eternally co-exist? If they are each God and all three are God, then they must have always co-existed.
That would add up to three gods, so that's why i think the Spirit and the Word came out of Father God at some moment and retained Father God's attributes of God and thus we have three entities yet one God.
That would add up to three gods, so that's why i think the Spirit and the Word came out of Father God at some moment and retained Father God's attributes of God and thus we have three entities yet one God.
- 21centpilgrim
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:17 pm
Re: God is Love and the Trinity
psimmond wrote:If God said, "Prior to creation, my grace and mercy were displayed," we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.21centpilgrim wrote: If his grace and mercy were not displayed from all eternity past does that call into question the trustworthiness of Him telling us the He is merciful and gracious?
So God is not gracious and merciful until that is displayed?
Was God holy before creation?
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.
Re: God is Love and the Trinity
Who knows? He obviously possessed the ability to be gracious and merciful. As far as "holy," if you mean "morally pure," then yes, I think we can all affirm that God has always been holy.21centpilgrim wrote: So God is not gracious and merciful until that is displayed?
Was God holy before creation?
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen
~Garry Friesen
- 21centpilgrim
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:17 pm
Re: God is Love and the Trinity
psimmond wrote:Who knows? He obviously possessed the ability to be gracious and merciful. As far as "holy," if you mean "morally pure," then yes, I think we can all affirm that God has always been holy.21centpilgrim wrote: So God is not gracious and merciful until that is displayed?
Was God holy before creation?
So God has always been holy even though that holiness was not always displayed in eternity.
I think if we agree on this then you don't have to have only 'love' being the trump card attribute in which to filter everything through. It is primary but not exclusive,imo.
We don't have to agree on just one answer to 'what is the essence of God?'
Is that agreeable?
thanks for the dialogue.
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.
Re: God is Love and the Trinity
Hi 21centpilgrim,
You kind of lost me with this last comment. It seems you're driving at some point, but I'm not clear what it is. Are you saying that if God was morally pure prior to creation, i.e. he never did what he determined to be wrong, then he must also have been loving prior to creation? Or are you saying something else?
You kind of lost me with this last comment. It seems you're driving at some point, but I'm not clear what it is. Are you saying that if God was morally pure prior to creation, i.e. he never did what he determined to be wrong, then he must also have been loving prior to creation? Or are you saying something else?
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen
~Garry Friesen
- darinhouston
- Posts: 3114
- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am
Re: God is Love and the Trinity
I think there are unitarian and bintarian sounding verses, but don't recall any trinitarian sounding verses (apart from some textual variants). I agree it doesn't resolve the issue and seems to suggest there isn't enough certainty around this greatest of all mysteries about the existential nature (vs. character) of God. So, I fail to see why it has to be such a touchstone of authentic Christianity (not just orthodoxy).mattrose wrote:Well all of us admit that there are unitarian sounding verses and binitarian sounding verses and trinitarian sounding verses, right?Timios wrote:Didn't Jesus Himself indicate a unitarian view of God when He called His Father the "only true God" in His prayer in John 17:3?
So I don't think the resolves the issue.
If it was important for us to believe, it would have been clearly taught. It is enough for me to know that God is God and that His Son (whether pre-existent or eternal or part of a God-head of sorts) is Lord over all, including me, and whether He created the universe, all material and spiritual existence, or just the New Creation, He is my Lord and is for all practical and spiritual and real purposes to be praised and adored because God said so. Whether that's because of His own existential nature or by way of agency or familial authority, it matters not to me His servant and subject. His authority is quite clear, and it is not for us to try and define the limits of His authority or its derivation. If there's ever been a place to say it, I say "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." Defining it is above our pay grade.
Re: God is Love and the Trinity
While I disagree with your appraisal of the Scriptural revelation (I think something akin to 'the Trinity' doctrine is quite clear), it should be noted that when I defend 'the Trinity' and emphasize its importance for a consistent theology, I don't really have in mind people like you who recognize Jesus as Lord and worthy of worship. I am more concerned with unitarian worship than unitarian doctrine. My main issue with your position is that I don't think the story of salvation actually (consistently) works if Jesus isn't the God-man.darinhouston wrote: I think there are unitarian and bintarian sounding verses, but don't recall any trinitarian sounding verses (apart from some textual variants). I agree it doesn't resolve the issue and seems to suggest there isn't enough certainty around this greatest of all mysteries about the existential nature (vs. character) of God. So, I fail to see why it has to be such a touchstone of authentic Christianity (not just orthodoxy).
If it was important for us to believe, it would have been clearly taught. It is enough for me to know that God is God and that His Son (whether pre-existent or eternal or part of a God-head of sorts) is Lord over all, including me, and whether He created the universe, all material and spiritual existence, or just the New Creation, He is my Lord and is for all practical and spiritual and real purposes to be praised and adored because God said so. Whether that's because of His own existential nature or by way of agency or familial authority, it matters not to me His servant and subject. His authority is quite clear, and it is not for us to try and define the limits of His authority or its derivation. If there's ever been a place to say it, I say "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." Defining it is above our pay grade.