Pierac wrote:Clearly Jesus did not say (εγω ειμι ο ων) nor did he state (ο ων), in John 8:58. Jesus spoke the words (εγω ειμι) just like other people in the bible who are not God. So just what was Jesus saying?
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Interestingly enough the words "I AM" in Greek are the same words used for "I AM" in the Septuagint: εγω ειμι. Further of interest is the fact that "am" in the Greek carries the same meaning in the Hebrew "hayah" which is "to exist" (self-evident).
eimi = the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb;
I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was. See also ei* - ei* 1488, eihn - eien 1498, einai - einai 1511, eis kaq eiV - heis kath heis 1527, hn - en 2258, esomai - esomai 2071, esmen - esmen 2070, este - este 2075, esti - esti 2076, kerdoV - kerdos 2771, isqi - isthi 2468, w - o 5600.
In that usage is critical when used in context one can easily conclude that Jesus was saying "I exist."
I Am
But what about the great "I Am him" statement of Jesus? Especially that classic one in John 8:58 where Jesus says, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born I am"? Surely here Jesus makes the same claim for himself that Jehovah God made back in Exodus 3 where the LORD says to Moses at the burning Bush "I Am Who I Am." Surely Jesus is claiming to be the I AM of the Old Testament as Trinitarian belief asserts?
This expression from Jesus' lips "I am" (Greek ego eimi) occurs throughout the Gospel of John and in no other text in John can it mean I AM, the God of the Old Testament.
Go back to John 4:25-26 for instance. The woman at the well said to Jesus, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when that one comes, he will declare all things to us." And Jesus said to her, "I who speak with you am he." You will notice that in most Bibles that word he is in italics. This means that the translators have correctly supplied a word in English that is not in the Greek but that nevertheless makes the intended sense quite clear. Here Jesus says to the woman - in the context of her question about the Messiah - that he is the Messiah, the Christ. "I who speak to you am he." In the Greek it reads ego eimi. Jesus simply says I am he, the Messiah. Definitely not "I am is the one speaking to you!"
Nope. The "he" is not included in the Greek and the "he" was added for intended clarification. Further, it has always been known that the Messiah is God, and of God.
In John 9 Jesus heals the blind man. Is this really the beggar who used to sit groping in the dark? Some people said, "Yes, it's him all right." Other said, "No, he just looks like him." But the beggar says, " ego eimi!" And the translators have no problem writing, "I am the one." So why aren't the translators consistent? Why not capitalize what this man says as I AM? Because it is clear that he is not claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. Saying "I am" (ego eimi) does not make somebody God in the Bible!
What Jesus is saying is simply "Before Abraham was born, I am he," that is, "I am the Messiah."
Sorry, but that's a magical stretch of logic by simply removing the context of the scriptures. Was John confused that the readers of his Gospel would mistake a "blind man" as Messiah?
Notice the context in John 8:56 where Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day." By faith Abraham looked forward and saw the coming Messiah before he came in history. He believed the promise that God would send the Promised One. On the other hand these Jews did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. They were claiming to be Abraham's descendents. Jesus said that this was impossible for they did not recognize him as their Messiah. But Jesus asserts that even before Abraham was born, he is the One who was always in God's plan. This Abraham believe and saw. The Messiah preexisted in God's plan and therefore in Abraham's believing mind, because he trusted the promise of God. Jesus positively did not say, before Abraham was, I was." Also, Jesus did not say, "Before Abraham was, I AM WHAT I AM."
The conclusion is inevitable. Jesus' claim "Before Abraham was born, I am he" is the straightforward claim that he is the long promised one, the Messiah, the One in question. Jesus is the Savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.
The Jewish leaders were very well aware of what Jesus was saying about himself! Jesus Was not claiming to be God but the Son of God as Shown in John 19:6. They give the very reason they wanted Him dead!
John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
Based on the conversations I've seen from you regarding the self-existence of Jesus and your denying of Him as the logos I would say you have been influenced by some gnostic beliefs regarding Jesus, Christodelphian maybe.
In the Gospel of John, John is clear in showing us that Jesus was self-existent from the beginning of time. I am the bread of life, I am the light of the world, I am the way, and the truth, and the life.
in some of Jesus' I AM sayings, though some translators add "he" after "I am," the NAB correctly literally translates the phrase simply, "I AM." Due to the Greek vocabulary and construction of that phrase and its relation to Exo 3:14, the nuanced meaning is "I have timeless being that coincides with God" -- as compared with being a mere temporally created mortal. As Barclay Newman and Eugene Nida describe it in A Translator's Handbook on the Gospel of John (NY: UBS, 1980, page 124), "In those passages in John's Gospel where Jesus uses "I am" in an absolute sense, he is identifying himself with God."
The Greek pronoun translated "I" is ego, and the Greek verb translated "am" is eimi. Even without the pronoun, eimi is still translated "I am." Eimi means to be or to exist eternally or to have timeless being. In the Fourth Gospel, eimi is often contrasted with the Greek verb ginomai, which can also mean to be, but has more of an emphasis on to become or to be created or to happen, in a time-bound, temporal sense.
More than any other writing in the Greek New Testament, the Fourth Gospel can most appropriately be read with two layers of meaning, the historically literal and the symbolic. Though Jesus spoke both Aramaic and Greek, it is generally assumed that he addressed his disciples primarily in Aramaic. The Fourth Gospel, written in Koine Greek, was written with very obvious awareness of the symbolism and significance of its phrasing in the Koine Greek language. In comparison with the synoptic gospels (Mark, Matthew, and Luke), the Fourth Gospel may thought of as more of a painting of Jesus' life and teachings -- a painting that is subjectively intended to bring out and highlight the texture and underlying meaning of Jesus' life and teachings. The synoptic gospels are more like photographs that somewhat objectively record events but with less opportunity to interpret.
In each of the verses from the Fourth Gospel quoted below, Jesus is found using the Greek verb eimi. In some of the verses he uses the phrase Ego eimi, which directly corresponds with the wording in Exodus 3:14. There, where the KJV translates the Hebrew into English as, "I AM THAT I AM" and other versions translate "I AM WHO I AM," the Greek Septuagint text of the Old Testament (completed about 132 BC and used as "the Bible" by the First, Second, and Third Century Christians) translates the Hebrew into Greek as, "Ego eimi ho on", which would be translated into English as "I am the Being." Early Jewish Christians were certainly familiar with the Septuagint's epoch making pronouncement, "Ego eimi ho on," and likely would not have missed the symbolism of the Gospel of John's use of "Ego eimi," when spoken by Jesus in the Greek text of John.
Seen in the light of Genesis 1:26 and 27, where God created man in his "image" and "likeness," Jesus' words representing the "I am" take on very significant meaning. The Fourth Gospel's insights into the character and message of Jesus shed great light on the entire New Testament, where Christ Jesus is several times referred to as the "image" or "likeness" of God in 2Co 4:4, Col 1:15, and Heb 1:3 -- and where through Christ "we" also are referred to as the image of God in Rom 8:29, 1Co 15:49, 2Co 3:18, and Col 3:10.
