"in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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jeremiah
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Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"

Post by jeremiah » Tue May 29, 2012 10:06 am

hello steve7150,
you wrote:The interesting thing Homer is that you have said the evidence for eternal torment and annihilation is about equal yet here you insist "aion" or "aionios" must refer to everlasting in both cases but that would violate the annihilation doctrine.
that doesn't violate annihilation, it's simply the difference between a process of destruction that has no end([destroying forever and ever), or the effect being an absolute destruction that will never be overturned.

grace and peace...
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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Paidion
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Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"

Post by Paidion » Tue May 29, 2012 11:18 am

Homer, how you can go from my seeing Steve's explanation as an interesting idea, to my admitting something, is a great marvel indeed!

From now on, I'd better not find anything interesting. Who knows what I might be admitting!
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verbatim
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Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"

Post by verbatim » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:23 pm

Paidion wrote: As I see it, Jesus' victory will not be complete until ALL of His enemies and other non-disciples, willingly submit. In this life, probably over 99% of all human beings have never submitted to Christ (consider the millions who have never even heard of Him, and the millions who are atheists, or adherents to one of the non-Christian religions). If that vast majority die without Christ, and are either annihilated or remain rebels forever, then who is the victor? Christ or Satan? But if Christ wins them all to Himself, or does whatever it takes to win them, then we have a clear Victor!
I’ll take the first and the last parts of your statements (I underline) which I think your view of Jesus has not yet gain victory as shown in Hebrews Heb 2:8-9 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Scripture agree with your statements that Jesus has not yet completed to put to all things subjection under him until his death.

But after his ascension the Scripture passages show otherwise Hebrew 1:3-4 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrew 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Philippians 2:8-11 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus has already been a victor and conqueror of death and obtained a inheritance of more excellent name and sit in the throne of his Father . Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

What is Jesus new name? Rev 2:17, Rev 3:12, Rev 19:12-13, Rev 14:1 & the name of the Father and the Son will be one Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
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steve7150
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Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"

Post by steve7150 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:10 pm

I’ll take the first and the last parts of your statements (I underline) which I think your view of Jesus has not yet gain victory as shown in Hebrews Heb 2:8-9 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Scripture agree with your statements that Jesus has not yet completed to put to all things subjection under him until his death.







Yes Jesus has done his work to merit his inheritence but since he is called the Savior of all men , the rest of the process is a work in progress IMHO.

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Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"

Post by Paidion » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:53 pm

verbatim wrote:... in Hebrews Heb 2:8-9 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Scripture agree with your statements that Jesus has not yet completed to put to all things subjection under him until his death.
Until His death???

When the writer to the Hebrews wrote these words, Jesus' death and resurrection had already occurred! And yet he wrote, "But now we see not yet all things put under him." So clearly the writer to the Hebrews did not believe that all things were yet under the feet of Jesus at the time he wrote Hebrews, even though Jesus had already died and been raised to life again.

So why does the writer at first say that God has but all things under Jesus' feet? Because when God intends to do a thing, it's as good as done. We might as well say that God has put all things under His feet — even though it hasn't been completed yet!
Paidion

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Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"

Post by verbatim » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:58 pm

steve7150 wrote:
Yes Jesus has done his work to merit his inheritence but since he is called the Savior of all men , the rest of the process is a work in progress IMHO.
Thanks for your reply, I think perhaps all works of Jesus has been completed when he said “ It’s finished” John19:30 and can you provide a verse showing that Jesus is called the “Savior” of all men.
I have only some verses that show that the Lord is the Savior.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
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verbatim
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Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"

Post by verbatim » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:23 pm

Paidion wrote:
When the writer to the Hebrews wrote these words, Jesus' death and resurrection had already occurred! And yet he wrote, "But now we see not yet all things put under him." So clearly the writer to the Hebrews did not believe that all things were yet under the feet of Jesus at the time he wrote Hebrews, even though Jesus had already died and been raised to life again.
Perhaps our reading must not be base on time of writing but in the context of what was written. I even said that the verse agree with your statement when the text says we see not yet all things put under him. So, in Hebrews 2:8-9 the writer believed that it was not yet put under him.

But in Hebrew 1:3-4 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrew 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Context show that he has succeeded and sat at the right hand of Majesty and hath by inheritance obtained a excellent name. In Hebrew 2:7 he was made lower in angel but in Heb 1:4 he was made much better than the angel.
Hope this help.
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How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7

steve7150
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Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"

Post by steve7150 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:25 pm

Thanks for your reply, I think perhaps all works of Jesus has been completed when he said “ It’s finished” John19:30 and can you provide a verse showing that Jesus is called the “Savior” of all men.


Hi Verbatim,

I think "it is finished" could mean his work of atonement is finished but not the continuing process of reconciling man to God. Some verses that i think call Jesus the Savior of all men are,

"the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world" 1st John 4.14

"for we have heard for ourselves and know that this really is the Savior of the world" John 4.42

"because we have put our hope in the living God who is the Savior of everyone, especially of those who believe" 1st Tim 4.10


These verses show God's intention or will is that in the end he wants everyone ultimately to be saved through Christ's atonement. The question is whether God gets what he says he wants.

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Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"

Post by verbatim » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:06 pm

steve7150 wrote:
I think "it is finished" could mean his work of atonement is finished but not the continuing process of reconciling man to God.
When Jesus said “it is finished” atonement is done. 2Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath
committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Jesus has finished or accomplished the mission he received from the Father and committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Some verses that i think call Jesus the Savior of all men are,

"the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world" 1st John 4.14

"for we have heard for ourselves and know that this really is the Savior of the world" John 4.42

"because we have put our hope in the living God who is the Savior of everyone, especially of those who believe" 1st Tim 4.10
I’m sorry none of the verse you gave doesn’t show that Jesus is the Savior of all men.
These verses show God's intention or will is that in the end he wants everyone ultimately to be saved through Christ's atonement. The question is whether God gets what he says he wants.
Agree, but I did not understand your last question.
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How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7

steve7150
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Re: "in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"

Post by steve7150 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:15 pm

Some verses that i think call Jesus the Savior of all men are,

"the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world" 1st John 4.14

"for we have heard for ourselves and know that this really is the Savior of the world" John 4.42

"because we have put our hope in the living God who is the Savior of everyone, especially of those who believe" 1st Tim 4.10




I’m sorry none of the verse you gave doesn’t show that Jesus is the Savior of all men.


Why not?

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