Scriptural Support for Devotion to Mary?

[steve]

Hi BrotherAlan,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my points. Feel free to reach whatever conclusions you wish, from whatever arguments you find impressive. I will stand by the arguments raised in my previous post, since your last post to me, though not leaving them unaddressed, did in fact leave them un-refuted. Having listened to and debated Catholic apologists of very notable reputation, I am very familiar with this kind of argumentation. I personally prefer exegetical treatments that do not import predetermined meanings into texts that neither contain nor imply them.

It seems to me that the modern strategy of Roman Catholicism, attempting to prove traditional points from scripture, is both ill-advised (since the enterprise obviously crashes and burns on the rocks of exegetical analysis) and it is also unnecessary. Catholics do not need for scripture to support their views. They have stated this plainly. They admit unashamedly that their church traditions stand equal to (even, seemingly, above) scripture as a teaching authority.

The only reason that one would need to make such a claim for tradition would be the recognition that the scriptures alone cannot be found to teach what the traditions affirm (if they did, one would not need to appeal to the authority of such traditions, but could simply make a case from scripture alone—something which Catholics obviously cannot do). If the scriptures taught the same things that the traditions taught, then one would need only one authority—scripture—to carry all the weight. The introduction of tradition as a rival to scripture (which it truly proves to be, as in your discussions) can only be an admission that scripture does not teach such things—and doesn't have to. This admission removes any need to argue for points of tradition by appeal to scripture.

Since I am not impressed with traditions that cannot be shown to agree with scripture, we stand at a stalemate. The same phenomenon is true in discussions with Mormons. They say they follow both scripture and the Book of Mormon, but whenever there are two independent and equal "authorities," deference must must be given to one over the other (as Jesus said, "No one can serve two masters"). With the Mormons, it will always be the Book of Mormon that trumps the scriptures, despite the valiant efforts of their missionaries to find their strange teachings in the Bible for the benefit of us skeptics.

Roman Catholic apologetics does the same thing. The difference between the Catholic and the Mormon, in this respect, is that the former appeals to "apostolic" authority (the Popes and the Magisterium), while the latter appeals to "prophetic" authority (that of Joseph Smith). Both represent valiant efforts. The problem is that the Bible already contains all the prophetic and apostolic authority that is needed for our instruction in life and godliness. The rest is fluff. "If anyone does not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in him" (Isa.8:20).

Therefore, while I appreciate your continued dialogue here with others, I would prefer to have any points to which you would like a response from me raised on the radio program. This will help me economize in the time-consuming activities of reading and writing—at both of which I am very slow.

[BrotherAlan]

Greetings, Steve--
This last post of yours on this thread made some claims regarding what, in your judgement, Catholics believe about the relationship between Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium. Since this touches upon the same topic that we have written about in our recent exchange on the "Roman Catholicism" forum, I thought that it would, now, be appropriate (and fair) to follow-up your last post on this thread with a brief clarification. I simply want to clarify exactly what we, as Catholics, actually claim to believe with regard to the (intimate) relationship between Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium. To this end, I will simply post a link here to the teachings on this topic given by the official Catechism of the Catholic Church itself: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

The link given above is to the “Table of Contents” of the Catechism; the chapter most relevant to this discussion about Scripture and Tradition (and the Magisterium) is “CHAPTER TWO GOD COMES TO MEET MAN” (so, one will need to click on the links in that chapter to find the relevant material).

If you (or anyone else reading this post) have not read these teachings from the Catechism, I do hope that you do read it. Even if you do not agree with, or understand fully, the position of the Catholic Church on this, at least you will know more clearly what Catholics believe about this topic.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

In Christ,
BrotherAlan

[BrotherAlan]

As we approach the great feast of Our Lord's birth, I think all Christians do well to ponder the following reflections on the angel Gabriel's annunciation to Mary (taken from a homily by Bernard of Clairvaux)....

You have heard, O Virgin, that you will conceive and bear a son; you have heard that it will not be by man but by the Holy Spirit. The angel awaits an answer; it is time for him to return to God who sent him. We too are waiting, O Lady, for your word of compassion; the sentence of condemnation weighs heavily upon us.

The price of our salvation is offered to you. We shall be set free at once if you consent. In the eternal Word of God we all came to be, and behold, we die. In your brief response we are to be remade in order to be recalled to life.

Tearful Adam with his sorrowing family begs this of you, O loving Virgin, in their exile from Paradise. Abraham begs it, David begs it. All the other holy patriarchs, your ancestors, ask it of you, as they dwell in the country of the shadow of death. This is what the whole earth waits for, prostrate at your feet. It is right in doing so, for on your word depends comfort for the wretched, ransom for the captive, freedom for the condemned, indeed, salvation for all the sons of Adam, the whole of your race.

Answer quickly, O Virgin. Reply in haste to the angel, or rather through the angel to the Lord. Answer with a word, receive the Word of God. Speak your own word, conceive the divine Word. Breathe a passing word, embrace the eternal Word.

Why do you delay, why are you afraid? Believe, give praise, and receive. Let humility be bold, let modesty be confident. This is no time for virginal simplicity to forget prudence. In this matter alone, O prudent Virgin, do not fear to be presumptuous. Though modest silence is pleasing, dutiful speech is now more necessary. Open your heart to faith, O blessed Virgin, your lips to praise, your womb to the Creator. See, the desired of all the nations is at your door, knocking to enter. If he should pass by because of your delay, in sorrow you would begin to seek him afresh, the One whom your soul loves. Arise, hasten, open. Arise in faith, hasten in devotion, open in praise and thanksgiving. Behold, the handmaid of the Lord, she says, be it done to me according to your word.

Prayer:
O God, eternal majesty, Whose ineffable Word the grace-filled Virgin received through the message of an Angel, and so she became the dwelling-place of divinity, filled with the light of the Holy Spirit, grant, we pray, that, by her example, we may, in humility, hold fast to your will. We ask this through Our Lord, Jesus Christ, Your Son, Who lives and reigns with You in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.

Merry Christmas....

In Christ, Our Savior,
Brother Alan

"Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!" (Elizabeth to Mary; Luke 1:42)

"Eve sought the fruit [of the tree], but did not find in it all that she coveted; whereas the Blessed Virgin, in her Fruit, found all that Eve had desired....Thus, is the Virgin blessed, but still more blessed is her Fruit." (Thomas Aquinas)