Healing with the Atonement

[TK]

This video was posted on FB today.. I would like some good feedback on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... ehJOzfj0Rg

Thanks,

TK

[Paidion]

I personally don't know anyone who would say that becoming sick is because of a lack of faith.

Ahhh... but do you know anyone who says that people are not healed, because of a lack of faith? I have encountered many — all of a Pentecostal or Charismatic persuasion.
In one instance, a child was born deformed. A faith healer prayed for her healing. She wasn't healed. He then declared that, although the father had the faith for her healing, her mother didn't. The interesting thing was that the father was not even a Christian at the time. I guess the healer was not aware of that fact.

[steve]

Aaron,

I am still having problems understanding your rationale.

You say that God never wants people sick. This translates into it always being His will to heal. Yet it does not translate into His protecting Christians from sickness in the first place, since you admit that Christians are as susceptible to getting sick as is anyone else. So the atonement guarantees that Christians will be healed after they get sick, but provides no guarantee that they will be immune to getting sick. What is God's thinking here?

You also have not exegeted a passage proving that healing is provided in the atonement. You simply say that you know that it is not God's will for people to be sick. You apparently don't object to it being God's will for Christians to suffer crippling injuries through accidents (like Adam falling off a cliff), or to die as a result of persecution or criminal violence. What is it about the common cold that God objects to, when he does not object to Christians being skinned alive and slowly roasted alive?

Also, you say that it does not bring condemnation to a believer to be told that their failure to be healed due to a lack of faith on their part, because we also fail to walk sinlessly. But if I sin, I am to blame. I need to be forgiven. Is this true also if I am sick? If I do not repent of my sin and mend my ways, I certainly bear the blame. Is Joni also to be blamed for her paralysis and her cancer? Or is it only for her cancer, since her paralysis was an accidental injury, rather than a "sickness"? Where do you find these fine points of distinction in scripture? And why do you want to?

I simply cannot understand either your reasoning, nor the scriptural basis you claim for your ideas.

[SteveF]

This video was posted on FB today.. I would like some good feedback on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... ehJOzfj0Rg

Thanks,

TK

Hi TK, if I were to sum up the video in one word it would be, disturbing. I’ve mentioned before on the forum that I was engrossed in the Word of Faith movement in the mid-eighties. This video is word for word what they teach. There’s nothing new here.

I hesitate to say anything because I think Steve G has done an admiral job at responding to this teaching several times over the years on the forum. I will merely echo his comments.
I simply don’t see physical healing guaranteed in the atonement. The scripture doesn’t teach it. The best I could say is in an indirect way it’s provided, in that, one day we are promised a resurrected body.

Putting that aside let me focus on one statement he made. It went something like this; “God is good, the devil is bad….cancer is bad, so where did cancer come from? Not from God but from the devil” Sounds logical right? It’s an air tight argument. Case closed.

Here’s another argument I hear WOF teachers make. “Have you ever seen a son or daughter of a king poor? No, never. Well, you are a child of the King and there is no way you should be living in the poor house!! You should walk in the wealth that the King has provided for you as his child” Another logical argument.

Do you see the problem in making these so called “logical statements”? The question should not be does the statement make sense, but rather is It consistent with what‘s taught in scripture?

My response to this teaching would be to strip away all these extra-biblical statements and simply look at the scripture and nothing else to make your determination. I know that’s a simplistic answer but unfortunately it seems that many people are led away by catch phrases and then read that logic into the scripture.

[TK]

Thanks for the input, SteveF.

Obviously how one views the issue hinges on whether physical healing was "purchased" by Jesus in the atonement. If that isnt true, then everything Bill J says on the matter (and other WOF teachers) crumbles.

However, I would agree that we often do attribute things to God that should not be attributed to Him.

TK

[steve]

I know of a king's son who was poor—Jesus of Nazareth.

[TK]

I have actuallly heard prosperity teachers try to explain that Jesus wasnt poor- he was surrounded by rich folks who supported him and his ministry. that might only be partially true later in his ministry, it certainly wasnt true when he was growing up.

TK

[TK]

I have been thinking about this issue quite a bit lately-- especially since last Sunday.

My best friend's mom and dad and sister visited our church on Sunday. His sister has a serious chronic supposedly incurable lung condition; she was hospitalized several weeks over the summer with it. She has had this condition for 11 years and while it waxes and wanes, in the last year things have deteriorated.

I think that when we discuss things like whether physical healing is part of the atonement, and there is debating back and forth, we may lose sight of the fact that regardless of our position on this issue, there are sick people who we should be praying for.

When my friend's sister raised her hand to have people pray for healing, that is exactly what I am going to do. Quite frankly, it is a mystery why she has this illness. Is it God's will? Since I don't know (God hasn't told me) my default position is that we should pray for a complete healing.

This is because I believe that would be Jesus' heart for this woman. I think he would be moved with compassion and would have healed her had he happen to stroll into the room.

But I (and other Christians) WERE in the room. I think it is our duty (and privilege) to pray against this disease that is racking her body. What are we supposed to do, sit around and do nothing because it might be God's will for her to have this condition? (I personally have a very difficult time accepting this as His will, but we have already been through all that).

I believe that we should be attacking sickness and cancer and disease because they deserve to be attacked. There is nothing good about them and cause endless misery and woe.

We don't need to believe that healing is part of the atonement to have this attitude, do we?

TK

[Michelle]

Hi TK,

I've been thinking about your post today, especially this at the end:

We don't need to believe that healing is part of the atonement to have this attitude, do we?

No, no we don't. I don't believe that healing is part of the atonement, but I do pray for everyone who I know who is sick, as well as people I've never met who request prayer. Just this morning I prayed for Sean's son, as well as several friends.

This is also from your post:

But I (and other Christians) WERE in the room. I think it is our duty (and privilege) to pray against this disease that is racking her body. What are we supposed to do, sit around and do nothing because it might be God's will for her to have this condition? (I personally have a very difficult time accepting this as His will, but we have already been through all that).

The bolded sentence seems to have sprung from some frustration - I can't believe you think that anyone who discusses things on this forum would be so unfeeling.

"Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child who is born to you shall die." Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD afflicted the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and he became sick. David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground." - 2Sa 12:14-16 ESV

David was told by a prophet that it WAS God's will that his son became sick and that would NOT be healed. Even so, he fasted and sought God. Why wouldn't we pray?

[TK]

Michelle wrote"

The bolded sentence seems to have sprung from some frustration - I can't believe you think that anyone who discusses things on this forum would be so unfeeling.

It was more of a rhetorical question-- certainly not meant to be a dispersion on anyone here who I know would pray for a sick person.

So I guess that is sort of my point-- arguing about whether healing is in the atonement or not may be one of those academic discussions that don't (or shouldn't) make a significant difference from a practical standpoint.

I think we should be praying and commanding sickness to leave in Jesus' name-- regardless of where we stand on the theological issue. I think it is what Jesus would want us to do.

TK