The identity of Lucifer

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steve
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The identity of Lucifer

Post by steve » Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:50 pm

I received and responded to the following email, posted below.
Hi Pastor Gregg,

I came to know about your ministry through youtube, and I got really excited when I came upon your series on spiritual warfare, I even downloaded the many different sessions, but when I came to the origin of Lucifer you disagree that he was the person described in Ezekiel 28:12-28 and Isaiah14:12-14 so you really lost me there and I stopped listening to your series. I disagree with you strongly there and actually most Bible teachers do—to mention a few: Chuck Swindoll, John Macarthur, Tony Evans, Perry Stone, ETC. Who do you think Lucifer is?

Reggie
Hi Reggie,

Thanks for writing. I'm sorry that finding an area of disagreement with me has caused you to stop listening, but it was bound to happen eventually. My teaching isn't for everybody. I am interested in the truth, which requires my teaching what the Bible actually says, rather than what popular Christianity has become accustomed to claiming that it says. It does not interest me to know what most Bible teachers say about a subject, if they cannot back it up with Biblical evidence. You know, of course, that Martin Luther got kicked out of the Catholic Church for this very reason. "Most teachers" of his time were teaching things that he could not find taught in the Bible, and he had the audacity to go with the Bible, instead of the teachers.

It is not news to me to hear that someone has a different view of Satan's origins than I have. I myself once held the popular view, and I am well aware that most people do. Therefore, when I teach what I find in scripture, I realize that what I am saying (and what the scriptures actually say) differs from what most listeners have heard. I fully expect that.

However, another thing I fully expect is that the listeners will consider the points I am making with sufficient objectivity to allow them to see whether what I am saying is the same thing that the Bible says, or not. Some people don't want to see what the Bible says, if it is not going to support what popular teachers say. I have encountered this mentality all my life, so I am not really surprised by your statements.

If you want to know who I think Lucifer is, I would simply ask, "Who does the Bible say that Lucifer is?" There is only one place in the Bible that mentions "Lucifer," so it should be easy enough to consider all the biblical evidence. Comparing Isaiah 14:12 and v.16, we find that the only individual ever referred to as "Lucifer" is a "man" (not an angel) and, according to v. 4, he is the king of Babylon. Mystery solved!

It is clear that the individual in Ezekiel 28 is not Lucifer, since Lucifer was "the king of Babylon," and the person in Ezekiel was "the king of Tyre" (28:12). There was not one individual who was both king of Babylon and of Tyre.

Of course, the popular view is that these are both referring to Satan, as the "power behind the throne" in both Babylon and Tyre. However, there is nothing in either passage (nor elsewhere in scripture) to suggest this theory, which makes it, obviously, an "unscriptural" assumption.

I guess you already listened, in the lecture, to my arguments, and found them unpersuasive. As you know, if you did in fact listen, I don't care what anyone thinks about the origin of Satan, so it is fine with me that you hold another opinion. But unless you can bring better scriptural arguments for your position than I have presented for mine, you should acknowledge that you are more willing to follow tradition than scripture in this matter.

Blessings!

Steve Gregg

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jarrod
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Re: The identity of Lucifer

Post by jarrod » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:51 pm

steve wrote:Mystery solved!
That made me laugh out loud.

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Paidion
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Re: The identity of Lucifer

Post by Paidion » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:17 pm

I can see Lucifer in the Isaiah passage identified as the King of Babylon.

However, it is not clear to me that the description in Ezekiel 28 fits the King of Tyre.

1. Was the King of Tyre in Eden, the garden of God? (vs 13) When and how did he get there? Wasn't man expelled from the garden? Permanently? With angels on guard to prevent his return?

2. Was the King of Tyre created rather than having a natural birth? (vs 13)? Was he "perfect in his ways from the day he was created until iniquity was found in him"?

3. Was the King of Tyre an anointed guardian cherub? (vs 14, RSV, ESV)
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steve
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Re: The identity of Lucifer

Post by steve » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:11 am

I can see Lucifer in the Isaiah passage identified as the King of Babylon.

However, it is not clear to me that the description in Ezekiel 28 fits the King of Tyre.

1. Was the King of Tyre in Eden, the garden of God? (vs 13) When and how did he get there? Wasn't man expelled from the garden? Permanently? With angels on guard to prevent his return?
No, the king of Tyre was not in the Garden of Eden. It is a figure of speech—no more literal than that the Assyrian was there (Ezek.31:3, 8-9).
2. Was the King of Tyre created rather than having a natural birth? (vs 13)
I think the king of Tyre is representative of the kingdom/city of Tyre, which was, like all human societies, created. The king of Babylon is also representative of Babylon itself, in that it was the creators of Babylon (i.e., the tower of Babel) who "said in their hearts" that they would ascend into the heavens, above the stars...high above the clouds.
Was he "perfect in his ways from the day he was created until iniquity was found in him"?
Apparently God had no specific complaint against Tyre in those days. Perfection is a hyperbole. Nobody is absolutely perfect. Tyre said, "I am perfect in beauty!" (Ezek.27:3) and God seems to acknowledge it (28:12). Of course, it was the city, not the man that was "perfected" in beauty (see 27:11). Likewise with the other measures of "perfection" referred to.

The first mentioned imperfection of Tyre to bring down God's wrath was not in some cosmic rebellion against God, but in becoming corrupted through commerce (28:18).
3. Was the King of Tyre an anointed guardian cherub? (vs 14, RSV, ESV)
No. Neither was Satan. In the Bible, Satan is identified with the serpent in the garden, not the cherub. The only cherub in the Garden of Eden was the one God placed there to guard the way to the tree of life, after man sinned.

I would point out that the king of Tyre was no more a cherub in the Garden of Eden than was Assyria a tree in the Garden of Eden (ch.31). It is poetic language.

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Re: The identity of Lucifer

Post by verbatim » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:42 pm

Steve wrote:
No, the king of Tyre was not in the Garden of Eden. It is a figure of speech—no more literal than that the Assyrian was there (Ezek.31:3, 8-9).
No. Neither was Satan. In the Bible, Satan is identified with the serpent in the garden, not the cherub. The only cherub in the Garden of Eden was the one God placed there to guard the way to the tree of life, after man sinned.
There were no other being present at the garden except Adam and Eve and the serpent whom you say is identified as Satan and after the ‘fall’ Cherubims (plural) are placed to keep the way of the tree of life.

So, before the man’s fall, Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; may be referring to Satan because there are no other person who has been in the garden except the couple and the serpent and the following verse (14-15) about the anointed cherub who rebel against God.His iniquity is describe in Isaiah 14:13-14
Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Ezekiel 28:16-17 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

This two verse correlates to Isaiah 14:12-14 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

I would point out that the king of Tyre being a poetic language pertain to the king of the world is Satan a rebellious cherub which was cast down on earth (Isaiah 14:12, & Ezekiel 28:16-17).
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Candlepower
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Re: The identity of Lucifer

Post by Candlepower » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:13 am

Here are a couple of short YouTube videos that help create understanding about Lucifer & Satan


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDcVhDefLQY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyKhY2oLzng

SteveF

Re: The identity of Lucifer

Post by SteveF » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:49 am

Candlepower wrote:Here are a couple of short YouTube videos that help create understanding about Lucifer & Satan
The person taking the calls in those videos seems fairly knowledgeable

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Candlepower
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Re: The identity of Lucifer

Post by Candlepower » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:57 pm

SteveF wrote
The person taking the calls in those videos seems fairly knowledgeable
Hello SteveF

Yes, the man taking the phone calls is quite knowledgeable. I appreciate how he carefully compares scripture with scripture. And I appreciate that he is careful to separate Bible facts from personal suppositions. That is something very few Bible teachers and preachers do.

When I was a fledgling Christian, I heard a visiting evangelist say to the audience, "If you're not in this church every time the doors are open, you are sinning." I believed him. After all, he was an experienced man of God! It wasn't until I finished reading the Bible that I realized the man was making stuff up on the run.

God bless you,

Candlepower

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steve
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Re: The identity of Lucifer

Post by steve » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:31 pm

verbatim wrote:
So, before the man’s fall, Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; may be referring to Satan because there are no other person who has been in the garden except the couple and the serpent and the following verse (14-15) about the anointed cherub who rebel against God.His iniquity is describe in Isaiah 14:13-14
I don't get it. Why would part of the passage describe Satan before man's fall and the other part describe him after man's fall? Most people think the passage is about Satan's fall, not man's. Also, where do you find information in the Bible that says Satan was ever a cherub at all? A much more common view (though equally without scriptural support) is that Satan was an archangel, not a cherub. Why can't we let the passage itself tell us who it is about (v.12)?
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

This two verse correlates to Isaiah 14:12-14 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
I don't think so. One passage is about the king of Tyre, the other is about the king of Babylon. There is no scriptural basis for merging the two passages into prophecies about the same person.
I would point out that the king of Tyre being a poetic language pertain to the king of the world is Satan a rebellious cherub which was cast down on earth (Isaiah 14:12, & Ezekiel 28:16-17).
This is the common view, to be sure. I am not unfamiliar with the common view. What I am suggesting is that the common view is entirely based upon assumptions that have no scriptural support. The king of Tyre was not literally a "cherub" in the Garden of Eden (Ezek.28) any more than the Assyrian was a "tree" in the Garden of Eden (ch.31). Both are figures of speech—metaphors, to be precise.

Of course, anyone is welcome to believe the traditional view (I can't see that it hurts anything), but those who do will have to be content to be advocating a view that cannot withstand cross-examination from scripture. Since I teach publicly and welcome cross-examination, I do not have that luxury.

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Re: The identity of Lucifer

Post by verbatim » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:06 am

steve wrote:
If you want to know who I think Lucifer is, I would simply ask, "Who does the Bible say that Lucifer is?" There is
only one place in the Bible that mentions "Lucifer," so it should be easy enough to consider all the biblical evidence.
Comparing Isaiah 14:12 and v.16, we find that the only individual ever referred to as "Lucifer" is a "man" (not an angel)
and, according to v. 4, he is the king of Babylon. Mystery solved!

It is clear that the individual in Ezekiel 28 is not Lucifer, since Lucifer was "the king of Babylon," and the person in Ezekiel
was "the king of Tyre" (28:12). There was not one individual who was both king of Babylon and of Tyre.
In Isaiah 14:12,& v.16 KJV translated it; How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the
man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
So, if your reading and thinking of said Scripture that Lucifer is a man, king of Babylon it will appear that there is no Lucifer, a devil and all that men know about him is a traditional belief, a myth. Is that what you mean?
In Ezekiel 28:13-14 If the king of Tyre who was said to be in the Garden of Eden and describe as an anointed “cherub”
according to your words that the king of Tyre said to be in the Garden of Eden and anointed “cherub” are only figure of speech or an allegory, how do you explain that the King of Tyre to be in Eden and what does it means that he was anointed “cherub” according to the Scripture?
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How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7

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