Joyce Meyer on Jesus being "born again"

[steve7150]

No, the JWs don't teach that. They believe that for those who are spirit-begotten, being "born again" occurs after conversion and adoption as sons of God by holy spirit. Now, if my memory serves me correctly, Nelson Barbour, who was an early associate of CT Russell (they had a falling out)








But isn't the number of born again folks limited to the 144K? You are right in that Russell is not really the founder of the JWs but the Associated bible students who split from the JWs.

[jriccitelli]

I'm a bit scetchy on all the JW stuff, but as i recall they believe the 144,000 reign with Christ in Heaven over the earthly class which is the 'great crowd' on earth (the 144 group is the little flock and the other being another flock on earth). I do want to thank you for bringing this up as I am seeing a parallel with my last unanswered question to Steve regarding the two distinct group of Christians post-mortem he proposed UR is suggesting;

You tell me you have answered this a dozen times, but all I can glean from miles of your posts seems to be your belief that there are two types of saved people...
It would hard to say these people are ‘Christians’ as the definition is abit lost in the doctrine of someone repenting in the LOF. Your arguments for UR needs people repenting in the LOF to be saved, but is that faith? Are these people believers? Are these people Christians? Is that trusting in Christ for your salvation? It would be hard to determine what label some person coming out of the LOF would have, since you yourself say they do not get to reign with Christ in the New Jerusalem... ('Hell book complete' thread pg.10)

[jriccitelli]

Jesus didn't use the term, as I pointed out in my post above. He used the term "begotten again." (Paidion)

Paidion the context speaks of wombs and of mothers, don’t you think it would be a misrepresentation to say Jesus was not addressing 'birth' in this context?

Joyce seems to have missed the part about Jesus being the ‘Only’ begotten, and confused begotten with born again. Or she just took Kenneth Hagin’s words, and E.W. Kenyons ideas, and taught them unwittingly.

[TheEditor]

Hi Steve and JR,

Yes, they teach that there are only 144,00 spirit-begotten sons of God from the 1st century til today, and that only a "remnant" remain. However, the process of being "born-again" for JWs is "technically" the traditional view, namely, conversion and begetting of the holy spirit, not undergoing a physical death. Although, they do see physical death as a necessary thing at some point for the 144,000 class, with the exception of those alive at Jesus "coming".

The 2 class JW system came gradually as prior to the 1930s, they believed that the "great crowd" in Revelation were Christians that hadn't served as "more than conquerors" and so didn't receive the reward of sitting on Jesus throne with him, but rather served "before" the throne. They also believed that the majority of non-beliveers would survive the destruction of earthly systems by God and live on a cleansed Earth to receive the Gospel undistracted by Satan and his system. These were referred to as the "Restitution Class".

In the 1930s, JF Rutherford decided that the "Restitution Class" was actually the "Great Crowd" and that their not being on Christ's throne but "before it" meant before it on earth.

Nelson Barbour was a Second Adventist that sold Russell on the chronology that led to 1874 and 1914. They split in the 1880s over the issue of the Ransom.

Regards, Brenden.

[steve7150]

In the 1930s, JF Rutherford decided that the "Restituion Class" was actually the "Great Crowd" and that their not being on Christ's throne but "before it" meant before it on earth.

Nelson Barbour was a Second Adventist that sold Russell on the chronology that led to 1874 and 1914. They split in the 1880s over the issue of the Ransom.







I remember in Rev 7 and "before the throne" there was something about a footstool and they saw "footstool" as meaning earth because in the Psalms it says the earth is the footstool of the Lord.
Also Russell believed everyone would be resurrected and i think Rutherford felt most but not everyone gets resurrected.

[TheEditor]

Hi Steve7150 (is there another name yougo by?)

The issue of the "footstool" was how the great crowd could be before the throne but not in heaven, and they reasoned that it would be in the same sense that the earth is God's footstool.

As for resurrection; Russell's view of the Ransom was that Jesus died for Adam, and hence, all that descended from Adam's loins. He believed all including Adam would be resurrected. Rutherford, on the other hand, starting in about the early 1920s, began assigning more and more people to the "second death", particularly clergymen and others. Though he said publicly that we can't know for sure what will happen to everyone on the day of Armageddon, the implication was clear that the further you are from the JW community, the less likely your chances of survival.

Regards, Brenden.

[steve7150]

Hi Steve7150 (is there another name yougo by?)









Well JR calls me 7150 so that works. Or Steve7 or SRS would work.

[nancyer]

I like Joyce Meyer, have listened to her for the past 5+ years. In fact, I credit her with bringing me to Christ. I had been searching for something, didn't know what. I read The Secret, The New Earth, Wayne Dyer's books on the Dao, and all seemed to fall short of what I was looking for.

Joyce brought it all together. The reason for EVERYTHING is God!!! And Jesus as my Saviour is the path to God. Everything made sense. I want to know God, understand scripture, I am absolutely hungry for it. I found a church, started going to Sunday service and Tuesday & Thursday Bible Study classes. Because Joyce made me thirsty for the Word.

I still listen to her when I can and I have several of her books. I know she gets some flack but so do most of the TV evangelists and preachers. I turly believe Joyce is a woman of God and I read the Bible, incorporate her teachings along with my pastor's teachings and insights from other author's books. I don't read my Bible, I study it.

[Singalphile]

I've noticed that lately, all of The Narrow Path morning shows have about 2 minutes of her show on the end of them.

[psimmond]

Paidion wrote:When we have repented and submitted to the authority of Christ we are begotten again (This is the phrase used in John 3, not "born again").

When a human sperm unites with a human egg, a new life is begotten. Then it grows in the womb for nine months and is born. Something analogous happens to the regenerated person. He is generated again (or "begotten" again) when he enters the door of salvation. Then he has a spiritual growth.

... he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Php 1:6)

The process of that "good work", i.e. your spiritual growth is analgous to the human foetus being "fed" in the womb, and growing into a mature baby. Then it becomes born and emerges into a completely different life. That is analgous to our emergence at our resurrection into a very different form of life—an immortal life.

And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. (Col. 1:18)

Jesus was the first to be BORN from the dead, having been the first to have a true resurrection. So on that great resurrection day when Jesus raises us from the dead, we also shall experience the second birth.

This is an interesting theory but I don't think the Greek can be used to make your case. The Greek verb γενναω can mean begotten/fathered as you say; however, it can also mean born (Mat 2:1,4; Rom 9:11).

Psalm 2:7, which we see quoted in Acts and Hebrews, seems to use this verb in more of an adoption sense--at least the word "today" seems to suggest this; however, it seems the new testament references may mean begotten.

I think it makes more sense to say that when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be εγεννηθη again, he was referring to the death of the old sinful self and the new life in Him (Rom 6:1-14).