Getting to The Will of God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Homer
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Re: Getting to The Will of God

Post by Homer » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:28 am

Hi Dizerner,
This is a tough question, but you misquoted the verse.
Not exactly; I quoted the NKJV. The NIV is similar, adding "care" instead of will. I just didn't check the Greek. But this is all irrelevant. You concluded with:
I think then, we should interpret the phrase "without your Father" in the light of "forgotten before God" as "without your Father's awareness."
So Jesus is telling His disciples that they should not fear what their persecutors do (Stephen for example)because God will know about what they do to you? Shouldn't it be understood that God will be aware and will help them - that they will only suffer insofar as it is God's will??

You should know that I am staunchly non-Calvinist but I have a strong view of God's sovereignty, and I see no contradiction in this.

dizerner

Re: Getting to The Will of God

Post by dizerner » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:44 am

My apologies I forgot some translations actually add that in. I strongly disagree it's irrelevant though... however.
So Jesus is telling His disciples that they should not fear what their persecutors do (Stephen for example)because God will know about what they do to you? Shouldn't it be understood that God will be aware and will help them - that they will only suffer insofar as it is God's will??
Jesus, was plainly telling them, to fear God more and to confess him before men no matter what. Check the contexts in Matthew and Luke.

4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who after He has killed has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
6 "Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? And yet not one of them is forgotten before God.
7 "Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear [men over God]; you are of more value than many sparrows.
8 "And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man shall confess him also before the angels of God;
9 but he who denies Me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
(Luk 12:4-9 NAS)

27 "What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops.
28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
30 "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 "Therefore do not fear [men over God]; you are of more value than many sparrows.
32 "Everyone therefore who shall confess Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
33 "But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Mat 10:27-34 NAS)

In both contexts, the subject matter is standing for God in the face of persecution, not being comforted that God won't put you through more than you can bear (we do get that elsewhere, just not here). The context is fearing God more than men, or the consequence is, being accepted by men, but denied by God. When men devalue us, God still values us—just like men devalue a sparrow, but God places value on all his creation. Though our life may seem, by other men, as worthless as a sparrow falling to the ground, that they sell for very little, it is extremely valued by God. I see no support for Divine determinism here.

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Homer
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Re: Getting to The Will of God

Post by Homer » Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:26 pm

Dizerner,

You wrote:
I see no support for Divine determinism here.
And neither do I. But I do firmly believe God has a veto regarding all that happens. An old folk song captures this perfectly, part of the lyrics:

Look up, look down this lonesome road
Hang down your head and cry
For we often lose some things in life
That makes us wonder why

Oh the fairest love I ever had
Now sleeps beneath the clay
I live in hopes and dreams of her
That we'll meet again someday

I often sit and wonder why
Life has to be this way
But after all is said and done
I'm sure God has his say

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Paidion
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Re: Getting to The Will of God

Post by Paidion » Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:45 pm

Homer, you wrote:But if God is all powerful can He not prevent any particular event from occurring? Didn't the bad stuff happen to Job after God "removed the hedge"? God is not just a helpless bystander, is He?
Hi Homer,
Is it your impression from my posts that I consider God to be "a helpless bystander"? If that were my position, I hardly would have written, "Although God occasionally intervenes in circumstances FOR OUR GOOD by preventing such events to occur, I think the MAIN way He works is within our hearts and minds..."
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Getting to The Will of God

Post by robbyyoung » Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:27 pm

Paidion wrote:
Homer, you wrote:But if God is all powerful can He not prevent any particular event from occurring? Didn't the bad stuff happen to Job after God "removed the hedge"? God is not just a helpless bystander, is He?
Hi Homer,
Is it your impression from my posts that I consider God to be "a helpless bystander"? If that were my position, I hardly would have written, "Although God occasionally intervenes in circumstances FOR OUR GOOD by preventing such events to occur, I think the MAIN way He works is within our hearts and minds..."
Hi Paidion,

Acts 9:16 reports that Yeshua, Himself, will SHOW Paul how he would and MUST (out of necessity) suffer for Yeshua's name sake. Yeshua will SHOW or hypodeiknymi Paul AND NOT intervene to STOP IT, but ENDORSE and bring his suffering to pass. Therefore, Rom 8:28 causes Paul's sufferings (all things) to work out for the good, God's Good. Paul knew this firsthand, please read again 2 Cor 12:7-10.

If God allows it, suffering, then His grace is sufficient to a perfect end result.

God Bless.

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Paidion
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Re: Getting to The Will of God

Post by Paidion » Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:49 pm

Paul knew this firsthand, please read again 2 Cor 12:7-10.
I reread it. This indicated that SOME difficulties in life worked for Paul's good. It doesn't indicate that ALL difficulties (such as the atrocities that I mentioned) work for good.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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robbyyoung
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Getting to The Will of God

Post by robbyyoung » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:21 pm

Paidion wrote:
Paul knew this firsthand, please read again 2 Cor 12:7-10.
I reread it. This indicated that SOME difficulties in life worked for Paul's good. It doesn't indicate that ALL difficulties (such as the atrocities that I mentioned) work for good.
Hi Paidion,

I see no good reason to accept your conclusions that somehow God's methods are inconsitent with His character in judgments, love and mercy. Paul DID NOT indictae that he was content with SOME difficulties! No, he clearly meant ALL weaknesses, insults, persecutions, and ALL of God's grace which was sufficient for his life on earth. For goodness sake, Yeshua sent a messenger of Satan (The Adversary) to persecute Paul in order to rid him of any latent arrogance, which was sure to hinder his ministry, and stifle the power of God shown through weakness. No, Paul said ALL THINGS not some.

The atrocities you have mentioned are ALL covered under God's sufficient grace, regardless of what it is. God's love, justice and mercy was ever present during christians being:

Beheaded
Eaten Alive
Burned Alive
Cut In Half
Crucified
Raped
Beaten, etc...

God's in-action is His endorsement for His power to be made known in the life of the believer. His grace will cover every last one of us and be suficient in ALL THINGS and His good will be established in the end. Either we trust God or not, we fear Him and love Him and allow Him to prepare us for whatever may come our way. This business of questioning His methods and reasons are counterintuitive, IMHO.

God Bless.

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TheEditor
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Re: Getting to The Will of God

Post by TheEditor » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:30 am

I'm not sure that this passage is an all encompassing template that covers any and all suffering a Christian endures. Paul is specifically referring in this passage to the supernatural revelations that he has received (though he refers to himself in the third person, supposedly to not "boast" in such revelations). He then states that he made appeal to the Lord 3 times to have whatever this "thorn in the flesh" was, removed. What it was is not said; some have suggested a vision difficulty left over from his road to Damascus experience; others the persecution received by fellow believers that criticized him, etc. Either way, he made appeal--perhaps even personally in his vision of the Lord--and was told that the Lord's "grace was sufficient" for him.

This to my mind is quite specific. I don't know that I could extrapolate this to mean that everything a believer experiences is somehow God-ordained and directed so that we can have some personal chastisement so as to be fitted for greater service. Can God work through affliction to make us stronger? Undoubtedly so. But the way I read is that God can work for good, even when bad happens, but not that he causes the bad proactively, so that he can work it for good.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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robbyyoung
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Re: Getting to The Will of God

Post by robbyyoung » Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:22 am

TheEditor wrote:I'm not sure that this passage is an all encompassing template that covers any and all suffering a Christian endures. Paul is specifically referring in this passage to the supernatural revelations that he has received (though he refers to himself in the third person, supposedly to not "boast" in such revelations). He then states that he made appeal to the Lord 3 times to have whatever this "thorn in the flesh" was, removed. What it was is not said; some have suggested a vision difficulty left over from his road to Damascus experience; others the persecution received by fellow believers that criticized him, etc. Either way, he made appeal--perhaps even personally in his vision of the Lord--and was told that the Lord's "grace was sufficient" for him. This to my mind is quite specific.
Hi Brenden,

Thanks for you input, however, I would disagree that this account DOESN'T encompass ALL of Paul's suffering. Verse 10 clearly identifies what God's grace is sufficient for, and the plurality CANNOT BE MISSED. I can extrapolate this to be "ALL" because to use "SOME" doesn't make any sense. Is God's grace sufficient for ALL or SOME of Paul's weaknesses? Is God's grace sufficient for ALL or SOME of Paul's hardships or persecutions?

Yes, Paul's "thorn in the flesh" is but just one of his sufferings, but verse 10 covers them ALL.
TheEditor wrote:I don't know that I could extrapolate this to mean that everything a believer experiences is somehow God-ordained and directed so that we can have some personal chastisement so as to be fitted for greater service. Can God work through affliction to make us stronger? Undoubtedly so. But the way I read is that God can work for good, even when bad happens, but not that he causes the bad proactively, so that he can work it for good.
God-ordained/He causes bad things to happen argument. Yes to both. If God allows "bad things" to happen, when He can clearly stop them, and DOESN'T, IS NOT His grace still sufficient in these matters? Is He NOT still soverign over ALL things in the believers life, as Paul describes to his own account in vs.10?

I see no reason to replace ALL with SOME regarding the topic at hand.

God Bless.

dizerner

Re: Getting to The Will of God

Post by dizerner » Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:56 am

And neither do I. But I do firmly believe God has a veto regarding all that happens. An old folk song captures this perfectly, part of the lyrics:

Look up, look down this lonesome road
Hang down your head and cry
For we often lose some things in life
That makes us wonder why

Oh the fairest love I ever had
Now sleeps beneath the clay
I live in hopes and dreams of her
That we'll meet again someday

I often sit and wonder why
Life has to be this way
But after all is said and done
I'm sure God has his say
That's beautiful Homer, and we have the Holy Spirit in our hearts to comfort and encourage us. We are told to fear nothing but God, because our true alignment, security and reality is not in anything physical or on this earth, but our anchor is in heaven. Although I do not think this passage of the sparrow teaches determinism, I do think it teaches us not to fear anything that can happen to us on earth.

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