Getting to The Will of God

[Homer]

psimmond,

You wrote:

It seems unnecessary to use "will" for both θελημα and βουλη. Why not say God's plan (βουλη) includes everything that takes place. Some of it aligns with God's will (θελημα) and some doesn't?

I had written:

Determined or sovereign will which generally can not be known to us.

It seems to me that "plan" would also be confusing. No doubt God has plans for this life and world that are hidden from us,while on the other had Christian's speak of God's "plan of salvation" which has been revealed to us. What would you call God's plan(s) that He is determined to bring about that are hidden from us?

I don't see why having more than one will is a problem. When I was young my determined will was to complete my education but my desired will was to go fishing.

Definition of WILL

transitive verb: desire, wish <call it what you will>

1 —used to express desire, choice, willingness, consent, or in negative constructions refusal <no one would take the job> <if we will all do our best> <will you please stop that racket>

2 —used to express frequent, customary, or habitual action or natural tendency or disposition <will get angry over nothing> <will work one day and loaf the next>

3 —used to express futurity <tomorrow morning I will wake up in this first-class hotel suite — Tennessee Williams>

4 —used to express capability or sufficiency <the back seat will hold three passengers>

5 —used to express probability and often equivalent to the simple verb <that will be the babysitter>

6 a —used to express determination, insistence, persistence, or willfulness <I have made up my mind to go and go I will>
b —used to express inevitability <accidents will happen>

7 —used to express a command, exhortation, or injunction <you will do as I say, at once>

[Paidion]

Hi psimmond,

I appeciate the distinction you made between θελημα and βουλη.
Yet, I find it hard to uderstand the "plan" of God. The following translation from the ESV seems to make it inevitable that Herod, Pilate, and the others would slay Jesus:

...for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. (Acts 4:27-28 ESV)

Of course I recognize that "προ-οριζω" does not mean "predestine" in the sense of the inevitable. It's more like "pre-appointed", and one is not compelled to keep an appointment.Yet, it still seems contradictory that God would plan an event and pre-appoint people to bring about that event, and still hold the same people responsible for murder.

On a human level, if a gang leader appoints a member to "rub out" someone, he commends and rewards that member; he doesn't punish him for murder.

[psimmond]

Homer wrote:I don't see why having more than one will is a problem. When I was young my determined will was to complete my education but my desired will was to go fishing.

I don't think it is a problem. I simply prefer to talk about different aspects of God's will (something you mentioned earlier in this thread) because I think it is less confusing.

Paidion wrote:I find it hard to understand the "plan" of God. The following translation from the ESV seems to make it inevitable that Herod, Pilate, and the others would slay Jesus:
...for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. (Acts 4:27-28 ESV)

I believe that the actions of the people mentioned in Acts 4 were inevitable from God's point of view because he has perfect knowledge of what every person will do in every situation & because he is always at work providentially directing the paths of men so that our actions are exactly what he knew we would do before the foundation of the world when he created his plan. God orchestrated events in Pilate's life so that he was sent to Judea to serve as governor. Why did God do this? Because he knew that if he placed Pilate in his specific Roman family at this specific time in history, given Pilate's upbringing and influences throughout his life when confronted later with a decision regarding Jesus' fate, Pilate would give in to Jesus' enemies and Jesus would die--fulfilling a VERY important piece of God's plan.

Likewise God placed me in my specific family at a specific time in history knowing that with my upbringing and influences throughout my life, I would make various decisions that would fulfill a small part of his plan. The same can be said for all of us.

[psimmond]

nancyer wrote:I have to say, gentlemen, that I am loving this dialogue. Thank you so much for all the wisdom to ponder. I am not nearly so versed in doctrine and theology and still consider myself a novice Christian.

We all have lots of room to grow when it comes to the truths of God, but I've found that since joining this forum 4 yrs ago, my knowledge of God has increased tremendously as the people on this forum have helped me process what I read in the Bible. And as my knowledge increases, my faith in God and love for him increases.

[nancyer]

Reading back through some posts I re-read all the comments here and am still learning from them. I love how we will never be done learning about or knowing (two different things) God.

I am currently in a very distressing situation and keep referring to Romans 8:28 that "all things work together for good for those who love God and are called to His purpose." Does this not fit into this thread? I am offering two different mind sets for the situation. That either God has placed a person where he is so that he can be a light to others OR that this person's situation is God's wake up call that he needs to seek God's help and make some serious changes.

Either way I see the situation as God's will being played out, whether right now or through the consequences and events of what has happened.

Again, thank you all for your wisdom and insight.

In Christ,
nancyer

[Paidion]

I am currently in a very distressing situation and keep referring to Romans 8:28 that "all things work together for good for those who love God and are called to His purpose."

I realize that this passage is usually understood to mean that all EVENTS work together for good for those who love God and are called to His purpose. But looking at it in its context certainly suggests that Paul had something quite different in mind. First of all, Paul stated that for those who love God,GOD works everything together for good for those who are called according to his purpose. THEN, Paul wrote:

For those whom he foreknew he also pre-appointed to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he pre-appointed, he also called, and those whom he called he also made righteous, and those whom he made righteous he also glorified. (Verses 29 and 30)

All of these things God does WITHIN the person who loves Him and is called according to His purpose. There is a sequence of events which God brings about in such people. (1)First He foreknew those people. This doesn't mean that He knew beforehand everything they were going to choose. Rather it means that He knew everything about them, including the thoughts and intents of their hearts. Thus He knew which people were likely to follow through. (2)Then He pre-appointed them for His purposes. The doesn't mean that they were "predestined" to do things apart from their ability to choose. We may be pre-appointed to go to the dentist on a particular day. But we may not keep that appointment. We may choose not to do so. (3) Then He called them to that to which He had pre-appointed them. Of course, they can resist His calling. But they are unlikely to do so since He had known their hearts and minds through His foreknowledge. (4) Then He made them righteous. This is a work in progress—not yet complete. "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1:6). (5) Finally He glorified them. None of us are yet glorified. But when God decides to do a thing, it's as good as done. So we might as well say that God did it. Here is an example of this:

But one testified in a certain place, saying: "What is man that You are mindful of him, Or the son of man that You take care of him? You have made him a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him over the works of Your hands. You have put all things in subjection under his feet." For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. (Hebrews 2:6-8)

God put all things in subjection to man, but we do not yet see all things in subjection to him! But since it is God's purpose, He is going to do it, and so it's as good as done!

Back to Romans 8. These 5 things that God purposes to do within those who love Him and are called according to His purpose—God works them together for their good!

[psimmond]

nancyer wrote: I am currently in a very distressing situation and keep referring to Romans 8:28 that "all things work together for good for those who love God and are called to His purpose." Does this not fit into this thread? I am offering two different mind sets for the situation. That either God has placed a person where he is so that he can be a light to others OR that this person's situation is God's wake up call that he needs to seek God's help and make some serious changes.

Either way I see the situation as God's will being played out, whether right now or through the consequences and events of what has happened.

This is one of my favorite verses and one that I often refer to when talking about God's will and God's plan. I would say the two mind sets you offer are certainly possible but I think there are many others as well. If you look at the context, it is about the trials of life that followers of Christ must all deal with as we await the second coming of Christ. We can be confident that in spite of the trials, God will use all of the situations we experience to achieve his purpose in our lives--to conform us to the image of his son.

[Paidion]

Well Brother Simmond, I still say that the things God works together for the good for those who are called and who love Him are things He does WITHIN us and not external circumstances which He manipulates for our good. I know I shall never believe that God causes one's wife to die in agony with cancer, or causes one's child to be run over by a truck, or cause one's young daughter to be torture and raped, or any other such atrocitiy for our GOOD and in order to conform us to the image of Christ. Most of us, if we believed that God did such things, would not become better or closer to the image of Christ, but would begin to resent God for bringing these things into our lives. I really believe that God has nothing to do with such hurtful events. Although God occasionally intervenes in circumstances FOR OUR GOOD by preventing such events to occur, I think the MAIN way He works is within our hearts and mind in order that we might better understand His great heart, and increase our love for Him, and be more consistent in obedience.

[Homer]

But if God is all powerful can He not prevent any particular event from occurring? Didn't the bad stuff happen to Job after God "removed the hedge"? God is not just a helpless bystander, is He?

What did Jesus mean or imply when He said "not a sparrow falls apart from the Father's will"? It seems to me the context of Jesus words concerns bad things that might happen to His disciples.

[dizerner]

But if God is all powerful can He not prevent any particular event from occurring? Didn't the bad stuff happen to Job after God "removed the hedge"? God is not just a helpless bystander, is He?

What did Jesus mean or imply when He said "not a sparrow falls apart from the Father's will"? It seems to me the context of Jesus words concerns bad things that might happen to His disciples.

This is a tough question, but you misquoted the verse. There is not the word "will" in it, nor the phrase "Father's will," and that's a really important doctrinal point. The verse simply says "not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father." If we were to assume by adding in "Father's will," that all sparrows exactly fall to the ground when and were God the Father wills, we have to become Calvinists believing in hard Divine determinism. Under Divine determinism praying "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," seems like a vain and useless prayer since God's will is always and everywhere perfectly accomplished. And this is what Calvinists believe, but I find it very unscriptural and putting more dark shades into God's character than is necessary. Fundamentally, to separate evil from good, we have to believe that things have happened in creation that God did not want to happen, and thankfully this is what Scripture tells us. Lest you think I'm stretching the exegesis by merely leaving off will, I think it's important to look to the parallel passage in Luke to clarify the original intention and meaning.

In Matthew it goes:
29 Are not, two sparrows, for a farthing, sold? And, one from among them, shall not fall upon the ground, without your Father;
30 But, even the hairs of, your, head, have all been numbered.
31 Then be not in fear--than many sparrows, better are, ye!

And in Luke it goes like this:
6 "Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? And yet not one of them is forgotten before God.
7 "Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are of more value than many sparrows. (Luk 12:6-7 NAS)

The before and after material is also almost identical so we could safely assume these are referring to the same discourses. Now in Luke we have emphasized quite a different idea than Divine determinism, in fact, almost phrased in a way that doesn't accord with it: Not one sparrow is forgotten by God, rather than merely falling to the ground with God's help. I think then, we should interpret the phrase "without your Father" in the light of "forgotten before God" as "without your Father's awareness."