The Trinity and Light

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Homer » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:07 pm

Jose,

You wrote:
In this case, using verses like the one above, the father would be saying "I am God, and there is no other God besides me." Doesn't this automatically exclude the Son and Spirit from being "one God?"
If the trinity is not true it would seem to exclude Jesus from being Emmanuel, or deity at all, for that matter. If you consider the belief that existed in the world at the time Isaiah wrote there were supposedly many Gods or deities. In that context there were no other deities according to Isaiah, thus without the Trinity the pre-incarnate Christ was............what?

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:26 am

Homer wrote: In that context there were no other deities according to Isaiah, thus without the Trinity the pre-incarnate Christ was............what?
By the time you get done listing everything the Bible says about Christ, he may as well be God. Everyone that cares about the text has to face that.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Paidion » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:45 pm

Dizerner wrote:...but the problem I have is this: if you don't equate the "Spirit of him" with the "him" then you have God raising Jesus without his Spirit.
I don't understand this reasoning. I don't equate the "Spirit of him" with the "Him" that is God the Father. The Spirit is not God the Father, but is the Spirit of God the Father. I see no relation to the idea of God raising Jesus without his Spirit.
Homer wrote:In that context there were no other deities according to Isaiah, thus without the Trinity the pre-incarnate Christ was............what?
He was the Son of God. He wasn't the Father. Jesus Himself addressed the Father as "the ONLY true God." (John 17:3). As the Son of God, the pre-incarnate Christ can be considered to be "God" (in the sense of being divine) but not in the sense of being "the only true God."
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:58 pm

So you believe the Spirit didn't raise Jesus but the Spirit still is the one that gives life?

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Paidion » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:28 am

So you believe the Spirit didn't raise Jesus but the Spirit still is the one that gives life?
It doesn't matter what I believe. What matters is what the text says:
If the Spirit (of him who raised Jesus from the dead) dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
The text suggests the following Four propositions:

1. The Spirit dwells in you.
2. Him (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead. (Affirmed also in the several texts which I posted.)
3. He who raised Christ from the dead (the Father) will also give life to your mortal bodies.
4. He who raised Christ from the dead (the Father) will give life to your mortal bodies through HIS Spirit who dwells in you.

It all makes sense when you understand that the Father's Spirit is the very Person of the Father and/or the Son extended so as to dwell in you.
Justin Martyr in his Dialogue With Trypho several times spoke of "The Spirit in the Person of the Father" and "The Spirit in the Person of the Son."
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:45 am

Paidion wrote:It doesn't matter what I believe. What matters is what the text says
If only everyone had that attitude. Do you think the "Spirit" is always Father+Son or does context determine when it's Father and when it's Son.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Paidion » Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:59 pm

Dizerner wrote:Do you think the "Spirit" is always Father+Son or does context determine when it's Father and when it's Son.
1. It seems that the Spirit is sometimes the extended Persons of the Father and the Son:
Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. (John 14:23)
The Father is in heaven with the Son seated at His right hand. So how can They make Their dwelling with their disciples? Is it not through their Spirit which they can freely extend to any point in the Universe?

The Father and the Son are so united in their divinity, in their intents and purposes, in their thinking, their righteousness, their hatred of sin (which I understand to be attitudes and actions which harm others or oneself), that their extended Persons, known as "the Holy Spirit" is indivisible. Jesus said to Philip, "Whoever has seen me, has seen the Father." He didn't mean that He WAS the Father, but rather that He was Another exactly like the Father. We read in Heb 1:3, that the Son is the EXACT IMPRINT of the Father's essence. Thus there is ONE Holy Spirit. (I Cor 6:17, 12:9, 12:13, Eph 2:10, 4:4)

2. Sometimes the Spirit is the extended Person of the Father alone, such as at the baptism of Jesus when the Spirit descended upon Him. While Jesus lived on earth, being completely human, His spirit was confined to His body. Thus it was the spirit of the Father that descended upon Him.

3. Sometimes the Spirit is the extended Person of Jesus alone, as in Acts 16:7 and Phil 1:19.

In the New Testament, we read of "the spirit of God (the Father), and of "the spirit of Jesus." We never read of "the spirit of the Spirit." Why not, if the Spirit is a third divine Person? Doesn't He have a spirit?

We also read many times of prayers addressed to the Father. We also read of a prayer addressed to Jesus (Acts 7:59). If the Spirit is a third divine Person, why do we never read of a prayer addressed to Him?

Since Trinitarianism has bloomed in Christendom since 325 A.D. prayers and hymns have been addressed to the Holy Spirit. E.G. the hymn, "Come Holy Spirit, we need Thee." But this is unheard of in the first two centuries of Christianity.

Paul taught TWO divine Individuals—the one true God, the Father and His Son, our Lord Jesus:

Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 2:5)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:57 pm

Thanks for explaining your views so clearly.
Why not, if the Spirit is a third divine Person? Doesn't He have a spirit?
God and Jesus don't have a separate Spirit in the Trinitarian view, such that we have God's Spirit, Jesus's Spirit, and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is both God's Spirit and Christ's Spirit.
If the Spirit is a third divine Person, why do we never read of a prayer addressed to Him?
If the term Spirit mostly referred to the "extended" Persons of Father and Son, why wouldn't it be very often prayed to? After all there's nothing theologically wrong with praying to God's "extended" Person, whatever that might mean. The lack of prayer to the Spirit seems to go more against this view than support it. If the Bible and early church supported the view that the Spirit was the Person of the Father and Son there would numerous amounts of prayers addressed to the Spirit.

As it is, I see the function of the Spirit has being our "tutor" or "helper" that lives in us and teaches and guides us. Romans 8 and other passages teach us the role of the Spirit is actually to help us pray correctly and also to pray with and through us. Thus constant references to praying in the Spirit or fellowshiping with the Spirit, also asking for the Spirit and seeking the Spirit, so that the Spirit is poured out. Just as the Father is "greater" than Jesus in his Role alone (not essence) so the Spirit is not prayed to due to his Role alone (not his essence).
"Come Holy Spirit, we need Thee." But this is unheard of in the first two centuries of Christianity.
I don't think the picture you paint is that cut or dried, nor truly accurate. Not only in Scripture do we constantly see phrases like the Holy Spirit coming upon people or a people asking and seeking for the Holy Spirit, we often see a much higher view of the Holy Spirit in early church fathers than is assumed (they honestly weren't always even consistent). Not because of any church councils, I'd assume, but because they simply read their Bibles. Polycarp of Smyrna who may have known John, stated:

For this cause, yea and for all things, I praise Thee, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, through the eternal and heavenly High-priest, Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, through whom with Him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now [and ever] and for the ages to come. Amen.

And still a couple hundred years later (and many times in between) we find this kind of language being mirrored by Saint Chrysostom:

whereunto may we all attain, through the grace and love towards men of our Lord Jesus Christ, with Whom to the Father together with the Holy Ghost, be glory, might, honor, now and forever, and world without end. Amen

Post Reply

Return to “Theology Proper, Christology, Pneumatology”