The Trinity and Light

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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TheEditor
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by TheEditor » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:26 pm

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss viewing God's spirit as a power, as a "cultic" idea. Though I am not comfortable consiging the Holy Spirit to a mere "force", if one does a plain reading of the text from Genesis to Revelation, there certainly is ample proof that the spirit is conveyed as something akin to "power" and the first time I know of where "personality" is even hinted at is when Jesus says "He", which is a grammatical issue. One thing is certain; there is nowhere to my recollection of anything akin to "personality" poured upon God's Holy Spirit in the OT, certainly not in the way that Jehovah (Yahweh) is said to be a "person,"

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:55 pm

TheEditor wrote:One thing is certain; there is nowhere to my recollection of anything akin to "personality" poured upon God's Holy Spirit in the OT, certainly not in the way that Jehovah (Yahweh) is said to be a "person,"
How is that an honest argument, when if I right now produced 20 OT verses showing the Spirit of the Lord treated as an identity and not a force, you'd just say "well it's another word for Yahweh." Sure "spirit" can mean attributes such as power and wisdom, and we can plug that in sometimes even for the word God or Christ. That simply doesn't prove anything at all, though. Once we believe in progressive revelation we go back to the OT and say, "Wow, now I know what David meant when he wrote 'take not thine Holy Spirit from me,'" or "Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or as His counselor has informed Him?" or ""Is it being said, O house of Jacob: 'Is the Spirit of the LORD impatient?" or "And the Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him" or "Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them." Powers don't grieve or mourn, they aren't blasphemed, they don't teach, they don't will, they don't convict, they don't have omniscience or omnipresence, you can't lie to them, they don't comfort, or give commands, or work together with, or are honored, or intercede, or give witness to, or have fellowship or have love.

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TheEditor
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by TheEditor » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:23 pm

you'd just say "well it's another word for Yahweh." Sure "spirit" can mean attributes such as power and wisdom, and we can plug that in sometimes even for the word God or Christ. That simply doesn't prove anything at all, though

Which is why the twain shall never meet. :D This game of "that doesn't prove anything" cuts both ways, does it not? "For you will go out with joy And be led forth with peace; The mountains and the hills will break forth into shouts of joy before you, And all the trees of the field will clap their hands." What do you think Dizerner? Trees got hands? Mountains and hills got vocal chords do they?

I never said in my previous post that I agreed it was strictly a non-personal force like wind. What I said was that to call it a "cultic idea" too cavalierly is a bit uninformed. I know of many Binatarians that do not believe in the personality of the Holy Spirit, and many trinitarians are okay with that.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Paidion
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Paidion » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:50 pm

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you. (Rom 8:11 NAS)
Dizerner, this is one of the oddest "proofs" of the spirit as a third divine Individual of any that I have encounted. Read it. It doesn't say that. It actually supports my position. It says, "If the spirit of HIM who raised Jesus from the dead, dwells in you..." Who is this "Him" who raised Jesus from the dead? Clearly it is the Father. It is clearly stated elsewhere that the Father raised Him from the dead. (Acts 13:30, 34; Rom 10:9; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:20; Col 2:12; 1 Pet 1:21). What Rom 8:11 speaks of if the SPIRIT of God the Father dwell in the Romans... The spirit of whom? God the Father who raised Jesus from the dead. Then the next clause says "He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead..." Who is that? God the Father. It then indicates that God the Father will give life to your mortal bodies. How? Through His Spirit (which is an extension of Himself).

Justin Martyr, a Christian who lived from 110 to165 A.D., had a discussion with a Jewish man, Trypho (and some of his companions) which lasted several days. Justin was showing from the Hebrew writings that God had begotten His Son before all ages, and compared this begetting to lighting a small fire from a large one. Justin affirmed also that the Son shared the Name “Yahweh” with the Father. He argued that in Genesis 19:24, there were two individuals who were called “Yahweh”, One in heaven (the Father), and One on earth (the Son) who was talking to Abraham. Justin also showed from many Scriptures that the Son of God was born on earth as a human being and that He was the promised Messiah.

Both Justin and Trypho throughout their dialogue had been referring to the Holy Spirit. Trypho could not have meant a third Person when he spoke of the Holy Spirit since he was a Jew that therefore believed God to by ONE individual.

It is interesting that at one point, Justin asked Trypho this question:

“Do you think that any other one is said to be worthy of worship and called Lord and God in the Scriptures, except the Maker of all, and Messiah, who by so many Scriptures was proved to you to have become man?”

Trypho replied, “How can we admit this, when we have instituted so great an inquiry as to whether there is any other than the Father alone?”
If Justin had been a Trinitarian, this would have been a perfect opportunity to present the Holy Spirit as the Third Person of the Trinity. But he didn't. Instead, he said:
“I must ask you this also, that I may know whether or not you are of a different opinion from that which you admitted some time ago.”

So clearly, though both Justin and Trypho spoke often about the Holy Spirit, neither one of them had a third divine Person in mind when they did.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:11 pm

Paidion you simply switch the Spirit to the Spirit of the Father or the Spirit of Christ as it suits you in the text, so you can never be nailed down. I'm using your own definition and formulation when I interpreted Romans 8:11, and seeing where it led. Did the Spirit of Christ raise Christ from the dead or not? Did the Spirit of the Father and Christ extended out raise Christ from the dead? That's what I asked you to answer. Obviously, for me, this is not a main proof text, just another of thousands that fits into my paradigm.

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Paidion
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Paidion » Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:04 am

Hi Dizerner,
I don't know how to make it clearer than I made it in my last post. I don't know how you can misintepret it as you do.
Did the Spirit of Christ raise Christ from the dead or not?
NOT
Did the Spirit of the Father and Christ extended out raise Christ from the dead?That's what I asked you to answer.

And here is my answer: NO.

The text you quoted doesn't say that the spirit raised anyone from the dead. It says the FATHER raised Christ from the dead.

Here it is again:
If the spirit of (HIM who raised Christ from the dead) dwells in you...
The Father is this HIM. The spirit is the One who dwells in you, that is the extended Persons of the Father and the Son as Jesus promised his disciples that They would make their dwelling in them.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:27 pm

I think you're just assuming the Spirit of God means the Father here. And the text nowhere says the word "Father." You can't just force the doctrine you want onto the text. I was pointing out your own inconsistency, because sometimes you want to interpret Spirit of God as Spirit of Christ as well. And actually, you should stay consistent because Scripture does too. Look at the entire passage brimming with Trinitarian ideas:

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you.

Notice in verse 9, that the terms "Spirit of God" and "Spirit of Christ" and "Spirit" are all equated to one personal pronoun "to him." But it again equates this entity with the term "the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus."

Spirit = Spirit of God = Spirit of Christ = the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus = Spirit who lives in you = Christ is in you

There really is absolutely no way around that logic without violating the text. And even you should be consistent and simply embrace the fact here that "the Spirit of Christ" is "the one who raised Jesus." But you know why you don't want to do that? Because it would introduce some other severe logical complications to your theology. That's why the Trinity doctrine beautifully harmonizes all these passages, and always perfectly fits the paradigm. If the Spirit is his own person, suddenly everything makes sense, because the Spirit represents the Father, the Son and himself.

Jose
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The Trinity and Light

Post by Jose » Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:32 am

dizerner wrote: How do you interpret this verse:

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. (Joh 14:26 NAS)

Do you think, then, this holy spirit is a general "power" or "essence" of God, or do you think it's an extension of the Son's or Father's spiritual presence? Because to me, Christ clearly distinguishes this helper from himself and the father. He gives the name "Holy Spirit" and he gives the title "Helper" (which he also takes, hence the "another.") It is sent from a specific person "the Father" it teaches a specific people "the saints" and it testifies of a specific person "the Son." Do you think it's a generic energy of the universe or what? Because I've never heard a satisfying non-Trinitarian interpretation of this passage.
I think that Jesus was speaking of himself even though he uses the third person. He spoke those words before his death and I believe he was referring to himself coming to them in a way that he could not before his resurrection and glorification. "The spirit was not given because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:33-39)
After his ascension and glorification, he could assure them that he would always be with them, but not before.

The word helper in that verse is paraclete and that word is used in only two passages in the NT, both times by John. When John used it the second time, (1 John 2:1) he said that Jesus IS the "Paraclete", the helper. It seems to me that Jesus was at first a human "filled with the spirit without measure," (John 3:34) but then after his glorification, he "BECAME a life giving spirit" (1 Cor 15:45) I think that before Jesus' ascension, all references to the spirit are references to the Father. After Jesus was raised, he partook of, and became united with, the father's spirit in a way that he had not before. It was a promise and a gift from God. Acts 2:33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear."
I do not think that the spirit is an impersonal force, but in fact very personal since it is the presence and power (breath, life) of the Father or Jesus, or both, but I don't think it is a conscience third being, so in this sense, I agree with Paidion. The spirit of Christ and the spirit of the Father in us are just a way of speaking about their abiding in the believer but it's an ability that Jesus did not appear to have before he died and rose again. Edit: I forgot to mention 2 Corinthians 3:17 - "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." This verse clearly states that Jesus IS the spirit which I think rules out a third personality.

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Paidion
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Paidion » Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:47 pm

I think you're just assuming the Spirit of God means the Father here.
No I am not. I have put some words in parentheses in my last post to make it clear.
And the text nowhere says the word "Father."
True, the word "Father" is not there. But "Him who raised Christ from the dead" IS there, And that "Him" is the Father.

Acts 4:10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well.
Acts 10:40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,
Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead,
Acts 13:37 but he whom God raised up did not see corruption.
Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
1 Corinthians 6:14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

Jose
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The Trinity and Light

Post by Jose » Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:07 pm

And the God who raised Jesus is elsewhere explicitly stated as being the Father.
Galatians 1:1 "Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead)"

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