Understanding Lordship Salvation

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
dwilkins
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by dwilkins » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:20 pm

Steve,

I'm sympathetic to what you wrote because it is modeled on relationships that we can not only identify with, but that scripture uses to illustrate salvation. The problem is that this relational mode doesn't fit very well into categorical theology. I'll give two examples. First, it sounds to me like the minimum age you'd consider salvation even possibly effective would be the late teen years. I can't see someone being able to fulfill the terms of the covenant at, say, 7 years old. But, Christianity is full of child evangelism. So, do you have an approximate minimum age that you think we should be starting to evangelize? Would you consider people significantly younger than that age to be categorically falsely saved? And, do you have a script or list of scripture that you'd suggest people stipulate to before they should be considered for baptism?

Second, when you talk about the backslider in this section,

"The backslider may have never been truly surrendered, but by having previously confessed Christ and been baptized, he/she has made the lifetime commitment. Having walked away from it does not free him/her from that commitment. It only means that that person is being false to his/her vows, and must return to obedience."

it seems to me that the stipulation that the person claimed to have believed without truly surrendering means that the person didn't really become a believer in the first place (a favorite assertion of fans of Lordship Salvation in my experience). An axiom of Lordship Salvation should be that you need to make Christ Lord in order to be saved, so if the person didn't do so how can you say that Lordship Salvation is necessary? Or, are you saying it's simply preferable?

Doug

Rusty
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by Rusty » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:37 pm

Paidion wrote:
Does that equate with being a law abiding citizen? Such as for the most part you strive to obey the laws of the legal system?
I suppose one could think of it in that way—with this difference:

In obeying the law of Christ we are not left with only our striving. Through Christ's death we obtain God's enabling grace (Titus 2) that "trains us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age."
Here is the thing with my life. I am a very solitary person, I always have been. I don't have any interest in worldly possessions outside of basic necessities. Pretty much what I do outside of work and sleep is go for walks, read and surf the internet. And I also pray and read scripture daily. And I'm usually very happy with this quite, I guess monastic type of life style. I do love my Lord very much and always have, and always feel His presence. I guess I'm just not sure if that is good enough.

dizerner

Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by dizerner » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:17 am

Rusty wrote:Here is the thing with my life. I am a very solitary person, I always have been. I don't have any interest in worldly possessions outside of basic necessities. Pretty much what I do outside of work and sleep is go for walks, read and surf the internet. And I also pray and read scripture daily. And I'm usually very happy with this quite, I guess monastic type of life style. I do love my Lord very much and always have, and always feel His presence. I guess I'm just not sure if that is good enough.
Rusty, to me, what you are describing is the very heart of spirituality—just walking with God, simply. We can become, even as Christians, and I think sometimes forgetting that even believers have a temptation to give into a worldly way of thinking/valuing, a bit works oriented. Not that doing things isn't important, but to lose sight of the reactor core, the real motivating impulse, our simple love relationship to God. "Let him who boasts boast in this," says God. Oh, we are allowed to boast? "In knowing me, that I am the Lord." Certainly not in works no matter how small or big, and the Bible deliberately says God does not measure according to our human sense of a grand scale—a widow's mite or a cup of cold water can bring more reward than going to the ends of the earth to make a convert or giving one's body to be burned. Because God cares about the heart. Whatever God does through us whether great or small, the real thing that matters should be that we can say, "Lord... I knew you." I often think to God, when you gave to some 5 talents or 10 talent or 1 talent, and we hear that in sermons a lot, that I barely got pocket change and my life can feel unimportant if I'm not building orphanages or doing some great and mighty work. I'm a one mite man, but I hope with all my heart to hear those words, "Well done." Paul spent a lot of time in prison when, I'm sure, others thought he could be more useful to the Lord—and Paul didn't let his feeling of limitedness keep him down in his walk with God. He said "I press on" when he had, many times, chains on his hands and barely the clothes on his back. But Paul described his personal spirituality as one thing, to lay hold of that for which he was laid hold of, to know Christ—and that's something anyone, anywhere can pursue. I recall a testimony of Billy Graham a few years back, and to me he surely is a man used by God, whatever quarrels one might have with him. And the one thing that stood out to me, was in talking about his possible regrets or things he could do differently, it wasn't crusade more fervently or do more outwardly. It was this one thing, the thing alone from which all real spiritual fruit must necessarily come. Here's an excerpt from that interview:

"I used to walk the streets in this area that had completely disintegrated because of the Depression at that time. And I would pray and I would ask God for a direction for my life and for the genuine purpose of my life. What am I here for?" Graham recounted... Over the years, as he spoke to millions, he was surprised by the numbers who gathered to hear his message, Graham said.... Graham passed along some advice to young preachers. "Spend more time in study and prayer. That's the secret of successful evangelism," he said. "If you neglect that, you've neglected the very heart of God's call to you." ... If Graham had the opportunity to live his life over again, he said there are things he would do differently. "I would study more. I would pray more, travel less, take less speaking engagements. I took too many of them in too many places around the world," he said. "If I had it to do over again, I'd spend more time in meditation and prayer and just telling the Lord how much I love Him and adore Him and am looking forward the time we're going to spend together for eternity." (full interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoSH0KnDuoY)

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steve
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by steve » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:08 am

it sounds to me like the minimum age you'd consider salvation even possibly effective would be the late teen years. I can't see someone being able to fulfill the terms of the covenant at, say, 7 years old. But, Christianity is full of child evangelism. So, do you have an approximate minimum age that you think we should be starting to evangelize? Would you consider people significantly younger than that age to be categorically falsely saved? And, do you have a script or list of scripture that you'd suggest people stipulate to before they should be considered for baptism?
I think that evangelism is communicating to a person that Jesus is the Lord. A child can be informed of this, and can accept it as a welcome truth. I did. In a previous era, when there were kings and lords, a child would learn from his parents that they served a monarch or a lord very early on—probably as young as age 4 or 5. I knew that Jesus was the one our family served when I was that age. I may not have known the dictionary definition of the word "lord" at that time, but I knew that, if my father or mother said, "Jesus wants us to do such-and-such," then that was thing I should, and wanted, to do. It never occurred to me that Jesus was someone whom it was optional to obey. That mentality has remained with me steadily since my childhood, though my appreciation for the richness of that reality, and the extent of the implied duties, matured as I became a man.

I personally believe that young children are saved by Christ's grace, even if they do not yet know about Him, but children who are raised knowing about the lordship of Christ are at a great advantage, and we are obliged to do our best to evangelize them.

Of course, evangelizing children is one thing. Baptizing them is another. The Jews didn't regard a boy as mature enough to be held accountable for his own relationship with God until he reached his 12th or 13th year. This is also the age at which many, in ancient societies, were married. Apparently, puberty was viewed as the time of passage from childhood to adulthood, and a child prior to that point was not regarded as capable of making responsible, life-long commitments. Such an idea might rightly guide our policies for baptism as well.

it seems to me that the stipulation that the person claimed to have believed without truly surrendering means that the person didn't really become a believer in the first place (a favorite assertion of fans of Lordship Salvation in my experience). An axiom of Lordship Salvation should be that you need to make Christ Lord in order to be saved, so if the person didn't do so how can you say that Lordship Salvation is necessary? Or, are you saying it's simply preferable?
There are certainly false professions of faith, and those who make them are not true Christians. However, one who makes promises, whether sincerely or not, ought to be conscience-bound to keep them. If promises were made insincerely (and therefore fraudulently), then such options as "anullment" have always been recognized as options for the defrauded party. However, I still think that people who make promises should keep them. If I promise to pay you for some service you perform or some product you deliver, but I secretly never really intended to pay you, then my insincerity does not morally free me from obligation to pay what I promised. I am bound by my words, and should count myself obligated to keep them (Eccl.5:2-6; Psalm 15:4c).

The person who is baptized as an adult is making such a promise to God and to the Christian community. He may default on his promise and be lost. However, he ought not.

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Paidion
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by Paidion » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:30 pm

Rusty wrote:Here is the thing with my life. I am a very solitary person, I always have been. I don't have any interest in worldly possessions outside of basic necessities. Pretty much what I do outside of work and sleep is go for walks, read and surf the internet. And I also pray and read scripture daily. And I'm usually very happy with this quite, I guess monastic type of life style. I do love my Lord very much and always have, and always feel His presence. I guess I'm just not sure if that is good enough.
To me, what you wrote above sounds like the description of a disciple of Jesus. Sometime we wonder if we are doing enough to please the Lord. Maybe we think that we should be involved in evangelism or better meeting the needs of the poor, etc. If you are concerned about such matters, just bring it before God; He'll show you what to do and how to do it. Not everyone has the same ministry. You have a ministry in the body of Christ. Perhaps you are not certain what it is or how to fulfill it. Just trust the Lord. He'll show you what you need to do or else maybe not. Perhaps He wants you to wait a while or learn something special first. But if you love Him and are relating to Him, you need not be concerned that what you are doing is not good enough. God is easy to please (though hard to satisfy).

In Tolstoï 's story "Three Old Men," an archbishop who was sailing the seas, spotted an island on which lived three old men. He arranged to go to the island, and after landing, asked the old men how they served God. They replied that they just kept living and finding food for themselves. So the archbishop decided to teach them "The Lord's Prayer." They were slow to learn, but after hours of instruction, they finally learned it and kept repeating it. The archbishop returned to the ship, happy that he had been of spiritual service to the old men. Then after an hour or so, he saw something in the distance moving rapidly toward the ship. As it approached the ship, he saw that it was the three old men striding rapidly toward the ship, walking on the water! "Oh Sir! We have forgotten your instruction! We learned the prayer, and repeated it several times, but then it just flew out of our minds. Please teach us again." The archbishop replied, "You Godly old men! It is I who needs to learn from you."
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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