Understanding Lordship Salvation

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
Rusty
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Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by Rusty » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:31 am

Hi, hope I'm posting this in the right place. I listened to Steve Gregg on a youtube video titled "How to become a Christian". I was a bit puzzled over Christians not thinking of Christ as lord and master, considering he is God. And I have no problem with the idea of Him being my lord and me being his slave. It's like when I went in to enlist for the military, I knew that they would own me, tell me where to go, what to do, what to eat, what to wear etc. and had no problem with that. I liked the structure....But the thing with this is, unlike the military, I'm not exactly sure what I am supposed to be doing.

dizerner

Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by dizerner » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:02 am

Christ being Lord surely is Biblical, isn't it? I'm not sure there's a Christian anywhere though, that would say "Christ isn't Lord!" They don't mean to say Christ is not Lord, or Christ is not your personal Lord. What they are essentially doing is saying "You have to perform a certain amount and do certain things to prove or to show that Christ really is your Lord." And the question would be, "What qualifies a person to be under the Lordship of Christ? What works or deeds are necessary?" And this necessarily ventures us into the territory of works salvation versus faith alone in grace alone, which requires only trust and nothing more. What can we offer Christ to "prove" him Lord? Our sins? Our efforts? Will they be worthy of him? Will they be good enough? And there are people on this forum who preach salvation by moralism or good works, as absolutely necessary and thus in some way earning salvation and becoming an addition to the pure work of Christ's death and resurrection on our behalf. Almost all Christians believe that when you profess faith in Christ, your nature is changed. Some people will preach "eternal security," that no sin you do after that can separate you from Christ. Some people will preach that you must constantly maintain your salvation with works of confession, altruism and good deeds, thus displaying in reality that Christ is your Lord. There are many Scriptures all the sides use and many proof texts to consider. Just be aware of what's going on, try to read the Bible as purely as possible, and ask Christ himself to guide and show you. Personally, I've found grace to be the power I can live holy by—because I think we will always fail at that, and feel we are not worthy of Christ. Even when we are 40 years old in the Lord or whatever—we have to depend on him for everything, and if we are using our own efforts and power, then how are we trusting in his? So to me, Lordship Salvation, is not earning his Lordship by saying "I can do what you ask of me," but rather trusting him to do in me, what I cannot do. Him being my Lord is me offering him no more, and no less, than a helpless trust that he will empower me to follow after him and do the right things, and forgive me when I don't. And as long as my trust is there, he will keep me from a sin unto death and deliver me from evil. I'm sure you will get many varying responses after this, but think and pray about them all, and above all, really read what the Bible itself says as best you can. God bless.

dwilkins
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by dwilkins » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:48 am

I'm not a fan of what is normally called "Lordship Salvation". The problem is that proponents of it always seem to be projecting their current struggles or knowledge back on a brand new believer, as well as displaying a generally sloppy way of thinking about the moment of salvation itself. The first problem comes from what most experienced believers mean by Lordship. They have in mind several years or decades of God revealing to them things about themselves that they need to reform. When those people started their paths they didn't see their attitudes about people they didn't like, or what they found funny, or how they spent their spare time as important topics of spiritual maturity. But, after some years of growth the big stuff (maybe a life of drugs or sexual misconduct) has been brought under consistent control. Now, God is working on them on a deeper, more subtle level. When these people think of Lordship Salvation, they tend to tell new people they are evangelizing that they need to give up absolutely everything including things that they themselves didn't when they first believed. They don't seem to consider it strange that they themselves weren't convicted of the most recent vices until years later. So, the issue is that someone just coming to Christ is possibly at a low point brought on by some major complex of sin, and that is what has broken them. To pitch Lordship Salvation to them in the way that it's popularly conceived might be adding a bit to what God has convicted. I don't have a problem pitching to someone that they should have no expectation of being able to keep anything back from God. But, to spend a few hours having them read the fine print of the contract seems out of place.

The second problem is that if we assert that salvation comes through a decision, and that this decision happens in a moment of time, then the decision can't really be any more complex than a moment of trust. After that instant, you are saved. It wouldn't make any sense to have someone who has decided to trust in Christ to hold off doing so "officially" until they can recite a stipulation to the fine print of the contract before actually stipulating to the trust itself. As a mental process, I'd say it's quite impossible. That moment of trust probably happened before the sentence regarding the fine print even began. This is one of the reasons the "Sinner's Prayer" concept doesn't make sense to me. Let's say you are evangelizing someone and they decide to accept Christ. At that moment, they are saved. Then, you explain to them that they can make a simple prayer to God to make this a reality (but, they're already saved). Then, they agreed to repeat after you (but, they're already saved). Then, you recite the paragraph alternating phrase by phrase ending with an "amen". But, they've already been saved for several minutes now. If we make the salvation event a real moment in time (a nanosecond, really), a good deal of the nonsense we want to add to it starts to make no sense.

In addition, the assertion that someone wasn't really saved because years later it appears that they are pushing back at God results in an ex post facto approach to the effectiveness of the moment of salvation. If we say that someone was really saved in 1980, and they lived properly as a Christian until 2014, then have a crisis in 2015, on what grounds can we say that the person wasn't legitimately saved 35 years ago? But, I see such analysis done about other people all of the time. It's even more ridiculous when you include someone believing "damnable heresy". Does starting to believe a doctrine 34 years after someone is saved make them unsaved? The Calvinist doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is based on such ex post facto logic and makes no sense in my opinion.

Finally, can you make him Lord? Let's say that I'm an anarchist who absolutely hates the idea of the president running this country with any level of authority. But then, one day, I wake up and realize that this must be the way of things or there will be rampant criminality. So, I declare to my friends that I have decided to make the current president the president of my country. Have I done so? Wasn't he so whether I realized it or not? If we see that Christ was seated on the throne in the New Testament narrative and that he already has authority over all things in the universe can you actually "make him Lord"? How would your decision to do so at the beginning of your path be any different than someone choosing to do so 20 years into theirs on some subtle topic. If that person 20 years into their new life chooses to finally let go of a specific topic of bad behavior in their life, did they just "make him Lord", or was he already whether they liked it or not?

I have no problem surrendering to Christ in whatever way a person is being convicted at the moment of salvation, but I don't see a precedent for the detailed hand wringing that we normally call Lordship Salvation in the New Testament.

Doug

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steve
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by steve » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:31 am

Some of the above descriptions of "Lordship Salvation" are unrecognizable to me. The term refers to the opposite of a hyper-dispensational view that one can accept Jesus as "Savior" while rejecting Him in His role as "Lord." "Lordship Salvation" is the doctrine that Jesus becomes one's Savior at the very moment that he/she surrenders to Him a Lord. Nothing more is intended, so far as I know.

dwilkins
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by dwilkins » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:22 pm

What I wrote above is directly addressing Lordship Salvation as it comes through John MacArthur who, as you know, wrote a popular book on the topic a few years back. I don't have a problem with more mild versions of the idea in as much as they are basically telling the person to submit to God, but that's not exactly what he's talking about.

Lordship Salvation is not the opposite of a hyper-Dispensationlist term. As it's used in eschatology and ecclessiology, hyper-Dispensationalism is the label given to Acts 28 Dispensationalists. That group doesn't believe that the church began until the rejection of the Jews in Acts 28, so that only the pastoral epistles directly apply to Christians. They make this distinction because before this chapter both Peter and Paul are engaging Jews directly. Strangely enough, the basis for Acts 28 Dispensationalism is one of the best antidotes to standard Acts 2 Dispensationalism because regular Acts 2 Dispensationalism claims that the church began at Pentecost, though the Jews and their hope based on OT eschatology are deeply involved throughout the narrative of Acts.

Two of the major institutions (there are others) still comfortable with Once Saved Always Saved, or Free Grace Salvation, are Dallas Theological Seminary and Liberty University. Lordship Salvation was advanced through MacArthur and some of the Baptist Seminaries in the last 30 or so years in order to push back on this doctrine. The OSAS approach is tied closely to regular Acts 2 Dispensationalism, which is why groups like Calvary Chapel have had a hard time pushing back against it. In other words, OSAS is a normal part of regular Dispensationalism, not hyper-Dispensationalism.

Interestingly, Robert Thieme Jr., a DTS graduate and mentor of Hal Lindsey, Chuck Swindoll, and John Mac Arthur in the 1960's, put together the most systematic explanation of OSAS I've ever heard. In it, he stipulates that repentance at salvation is made towards God, which inherently requires submission to God at the moment of salvation. If you follow his logic, he'd be fine with a loose concept of Lordship (in as much as it is synonymous with submission), though he'd say it doesn't have to remain after salvation. But, that was part of my point earlier. Anything that comes after salvation is illegitimate if true salvation can't be lost (which is true with both OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints). This is why the conditional salvation security position is able to accommodate scripture much better (though it's less theologically consistent). To me, of the three common positions (which would leave out Restorationist Universalism due to its extreme minority status), OSAS seems the most logical though least scriptural, Perseverance of the Saints seems the both illogical and unscriptural, and Conditional Security seems logically weak but the most scriptural.

Doug

dizerner

Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by dizerner » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:47 pm

Well, steve, you personally may not preach anything similar but there surely are those that do. I'm not entirely against the idea of Lordship Salvation in the sense of obedience to God's Word, because I do think a person can fall from the faith if they live a lukewarm life. However, I see self-effort as a trap that an emphasis on holy living can lead an inexperienced believer into, not because the message is wrong, or because the preacher even necessarily is preaching an untruth, but because they have not a fully developed understanding of grace yet, so they fall into the traps of condemnation and self-trust, and a lack of understanding about gradual outworked sanctification. So that's usually what I focus on when the subject of holy living comes up, because we'd all agree the Bible surely commands it, anyone that disagrees with that is not handling the text with honesty.

dwilkins thanks for your two posts, you seem very knowledgeable and I enjoyed reading and thinking about them.

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Paidion
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by Paidion » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:54 pm

Salvation (or "deliverance", a correct translation of the Greek word) from sin is a life-long process, that will one day be complete.

I am persuaded of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)

The good work which God began in us is deliverance from sin, made possible by Christ's magnificent sacrifice on our behalf. This process had a beginning, and it will have a termination at the day of Jesus Christ. Submission to Christ is the means by which the process begins. Perseverence in submission is the way in which the process continues. And Jesus' coming is the time at which the process ends when He puts the finishing touches on it.

After giving specific instructions (Matthew 5, 6, and 7) on how to live, Jesus finished his discourse with these words:

Everyone then who hears these words of mine and DOES them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.

In Romans 2, Paul wrote:

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour [from God] and immortality, He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Paul also wrote in Titus 2:14 that Christ "gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds."

Unfortunately, there are many who take the name of Christ, but think that nothing is required of them except to "accept Christ as their personal Saviour" or to "trust in the finished work of Christ" or to "pray the sinner's prayer" or some other formula. They regard salvation as a fire-escape from hell and "accept Christ" with the self-serving motive of escaping the flames of hell, whereas the reality is that God loves people completely, and knows that they will live life to the full in this world, when they are delivered from those self-seeking attitudes, and submit to the way of love that Christ offers, and to live in accordance with the law of Christ, and that this will equip them for eternity in His presence.

These truths are quickly dismissed as "salvation by works" or self-effort by those who are unwilling to come under the authority of Christ, for in their thinking, they don't have to do so. They will escape hell and go to heaven anyway since on March 27, 1976 (or whatever date) they accepted Christ or prayed the sinner's prayer or whatever. According to Jesus and the apostles, it's not some act in the past that gets them permanently right with God, but rather their present character and what they continue to be. That continuing salvation from sin, and living to righteousness is precisely what it means to stay on the narrow path that leads to life.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwilkins
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by dwilkins » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:09 pm

It seems to me that this line:

"The second problem is that if we assert that salvation comes through a decision, and that this decision happens in a moment of time, then the decision can't really be any more complex than a moment of trust."

is the crux of the matter. Paidon is asserting that this is not an adequate description of salvation. But, traditional Christianity has defined the term such. And, any proposing either Lordship Salvation or OSAS is assuming that my definition of salvation is correct. It may or may not be, but answering that question will determine the shape of the playing field.

Doug

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backwoodsman
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by backwoodsman » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:47 pm

Rusty wrote:But the thing with this is, unlike the military, I'm not exactly sure what I am supposed to be doing.
Rusty,

By any chance, is this sentence the significant part of your post, and where your question lies? If so, then the answer isn't that different from when you were in the military: Obey what you do know of God's will for you, and trust Him to let you know what you don't yet know when the time is right.

It seems a common human tendency to get way too wrapped up in intricate ideas on things about which the Bible simply doesn't say much, and/or is very concise and clear. This is driven, apparently, by a need to feel like we have everything all figured out. That's how we end up with even the simplest of teachings, like "Lordship Salvation", turned into entire books and complicated doctrinal systems by men who seem to have missed the whole point of simply following Jesus, learning to know Him better, and growing toward spiritual maturity.

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john6809
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Re: Understanding Lordship Salvation

Post by john6809 » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:06 pm

I agree with backwoodsman's analysis. But I'm with rusty in regards to the question. I had a much easier time with the question when I was single. In the context of marriage and children, with all of the varied personalities and likes, trying to follow the primary command of Christ to love others and lay down my life, is much more difficult to decipher. IMHO.


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"My memory is nearly gone; but I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Savior." - John Newton

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