What is the foundation of the church?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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robbyyoung
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by robbyyoung » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:42 am

Homer wrote:So what were the keys and when did Peter use them? IMO the gospel preached on Pentecost. Other ideas?
Hi Homer,

Most, if not all, commentaries tend to agree that the bearer of "A Key or Keys" was the ancient's way of denoting a high office. IMO, Yeshua was drawing from Isaiah 22:22, again using O.T. scripture His audience knew very well - to fulfill prophesy, type or shadow relating to His time. Peter held a position in which he could be uniquely in sync with God's will in order to bind and loose "things" that were already decreed or sanctioned as God's will in heaven. This being said, I believe this distinguished office disappeared when Peter left this earth, for this office was bestowed on him and him only. The 1st Century Church was built and it's purpose was met (to include bringing about the end of the age and ushering in an age to come), so IMHO everything seemed to work out as planned.

God Bless.

dizerner

Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by dizerner » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:33 pm

steve wrote:I don't believe Muslims would allow that Jesus, us, or anyone else are "sons" of God. This is a great sticking point alienating them from Christianity: "Allah has no consorts, so Allah has no sons"
Steve, as you know I often get carried away with myself in being a bit over-zealous and combative to make a point. Reading my own posts often gives me a flitting sense of shame. :lol: You are right... but although a Muslim might say it was wrong to be called a "son of God" in their religion, they will definitely use this argument against Christians for the very point I was making, that Jesus is not something "special." James White has often termed this (I think it was him) by the cute saying "sons by the tons." For example they would argue:
God has sons by the tons. For example, the Bible says that angels are God’s sons (Genesis 6:2, 4), the nation of Israel is God’s son (Exodus 4:22; Jeremiah 31:9), the kings of Israel like David are God’s sons (Psalm 2:7), Adam is God’s son (Luke 3:38), and even peacemakers are God’s sons (Matthew 5:9). Paul himself says that all true believers are God’s children (Romans 8:14). So why do Christians mistakenly assume that Jesus is God because he is said to be God’s Son? And wouldn’t this also prove that the term son of God simply refers to someone who is a righteous servant of God?
First, 21centpilgrim did not describe Unitarian Christianity
I'm just guessing where he's going with it, since like a lot of posters wanting to go against a prevailing idea, he starts a bit coy.
Second, most of the things contained in your citation of 21centpilgrim's post (apart from the virgin Mary part) are, in fact, implied in the very wording of Peter's statement.
Well, I agree. But if it is so, I'm making the point that Trinitarianism can be implied too. 8-)
Last edited by dizerner on Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dizerner

Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by dizerner » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:34 pm

if you are trying to ask me a leading question and then jump on me after I answer to play- gotcha-
Ok, you caught me. That is what I was trying to do, but not as a trick, merely to "cut you off at the pass" so to speak and try to anticipate where you're going with it.
It was sufficient for Jesus to affirm it as a correct understanding of Him as the foundation upon which the church would be built and stand against the gates of hell.
But I think this completely fits a Trinitarian theology rather than speaks against it. Because of that little word, Christ, Messiah, Meshiach, the anointed. Let's go to the OT and see what the role of the Messiah is, and it fits a Trinitarian soteriology. Can you honestly say that you think Peter fully understood everything "Christ" meant there? We are so used to throwing the term Christ around as if it were hardly anything at all. "You are the Christ," would then be defined by the rest of the revelation of Scripture about what the Christ came to do and who the Christ is. It's a segue, as it were, to a broader revelation, and not a catch-all "rock" in and of itself.
do you think one does not need to affirm the Trinity to be saved either?
No, for a couple reasons. The Bible indicates we don't need "all" truth to be saved, nor even necessarily just "data" about truth, but a real regeneration. Also, even the disciples could grow in their understanding of God and truth, after they were already described as "saved" by the working of Christ. You can have a very, very simple understanding of Jesus as sent by God for salvation, and the heart of that is salvation by faith through grace in his offering and resurrection. The Trinity is just a fuller and more complete picture of Biblical revelation. (Do you need proper eschatology to be saved? Of course not... do you need to understand predestination to be saved? Never. We believe as we search and pray God's Spirit will gradually lead us into more truth...)

dizerner

Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by dizerner » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:49 pm

Paidion wrote:
What I said makes perfect sense. You used a Scripture verse to tell us that Scripture is not the foundation. If that's not circular what is.
No way is it circular. Since you maintain that it is, try to demonstrate it logically.

Here is an analogy. Suppose you say that the foundation of my house is paper, whereas, I affirm that the is concrete. However, if I show you a paper from the builder that states my foundation is concrete, you accuse me of circular reasoning because I accept what is written on paper. Then you say that I might as well "throw away" the builder's paper, since if I don't accept that the foundation of my house is paper, this paper cannot be trusted.
Let's try to clarify. Can something authoritatively say that it, itself, is not an authority? If it says that it, itself, is not the authority, how can we know to trust it? And if we do trust it, it's saying that no longer can we truly trust it. If you're saying it's like a signpost pointing towards something else, I'd agree in a sense. But then still, that signpost has to be completely trustworthy. In your example, the paper you have states your foundation is concrete. But I have to have a good enough reason to trust that paper, right? What if I brought you another paper that said your foundation was clay? And another that said it was bronze? And another that said it was wood? What if your certificate turned out to be a forgery? If you say to me, this certificate I have is the authority that my foundation is concrete, then your paper becomes the real foundation for what your foundation is. If I can trust your paper—I can trust whatever it points to. Can I talk to the original prophets and apostles? Well, obviously not. But they can talk to me—as long as I trust that paper. Once I throw your certificate away, what foundation do I have to know what your foundation is? Anyone could claim anything. So in reality, even in your example, the stronger authority you have is your paper, not your concrete.

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Paidion
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by Paidion » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:10 pm

If you say to me, this certificate I have is the authority that my foundation is concrete, then your paper becomes the real foundation for what your foundation is.


That is correct. The paper can be trusted. But the paper is not the foundation of my house. The foundation of my house is concrete. Similarly, Paul's writings can be trusted. But they are not the foundation of the Church. The foundation of the Church is the Rock—Christ Jesus, and that foundation also extends to the apostles and prophets. The foundation of the Church consists of people—not paper.
Paidion

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21centpilgrim
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:49 pm

For those who affirm that Christ is talking to Peter, wouldn't you think Peter would mention this in his letters? Instead Peter says in 1 Peter 2 that Christ is the cornerstone and Paul affirms the same in Eph. 2:20 Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.

Indeed what is the apostolic message of Jesus- Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Messiah. Acts 5:42

I am seeing that I have givin a passing affirmation as Jesus being the Messiah, the Anointed one. Focusing more on Jesus is God the Son as my orthodox requirement. This is a result of Christian tradition that I don't neccesarily fault the church current with but perhaps we have been emphasizing the wrong thing.
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

dizerner

Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by dizerner » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:54 pm

21centpilgrim wrote:I am seeing that I have givin a passing affirmation as Jesus being the Messiah, the Anointed one. Focusing more on Jesus is God the Son as my orthodox requirement. This is a result of Christian tradition that I don't neccesarily fault the church current with but perhaps we have been emphasizing the wrong thing.
The way I see it is, saints in the past did all the ground work and real labor in the Bible to discover these doctrines, and now the church is just lazily handed them without any foundation for why. This is the real shame in my book, and the fault of poor teachers in the Body giving very sloppy sermons.

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TheEditor
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by TheEditor » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:30 pm

The way I see it is, saints in the past did all the ground work and real labor in the Bible to discover these doctrines, and now the church is just lazily handed them without any foundation for why. This is the real shame in my book, and the fault of poor teachers in the Body giving very sloppy sermons.


Agreed. But let's not forget that it helped to have the seal of approval of Constantine....great spiritual giant that he was.... ;)

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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21centpilgrim
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:15 pm

Dizerner,

I said the above as one who was a pastor/elder for 6 or so years. I know the historicity of the Trinity, had the proof texts and shared it all with others. I am afraid that many can not bring up doubts or serious scriptural challenges to this doctrine out of what one may be labeled by church leadership on this issue. As one who underwent church discipline years ago I am so hesitant to bring up any biblical questions myself to any leadership in my body where I fellowship.
I am glad to be able to share and bring questions to you all here though.
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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TheEditor
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by TheEditor » Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:52 pm

Hi 21cent (is that a rap name? :lol: )

In a sad way I find it heartening to know that low tolerance towards the questioning of traditional teachings is not something unique to JWs, as I discovered after I made my Exodus. The parameters may be narrow, or quite wide when it comes to sectarian thinking, but there it is anyway. Be it the traditional view of the trinity, hellfire, the state of the dead, the state of the lost, the state of Israel--any or all of these can be used as barometers by which one is judged by a church fellowship. All of this leads to sectarianism, which is why Paul labels it a work of the flesh.

Regards, Brenden.

[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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