What is the foundation of the church?

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21centpilgrim
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What is the foundation of the church?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:25 pm

“But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

After a couple of years thinking about Christology with my bible and heart open, I am amazed that the Trinitarians have so much weight in the church. The church seems not to be built upon the triune nature of God or even 'God the Son' but upon the truth that Jesus is the anointed promised Messiah and the Son of the living God.
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

dizerner

Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by dizerner » Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:18 pm

I guess we see, not that one verse, but the entire Bible as the foundation of the church? (Consider what the Catholics do with that one verse...) See our massively long thread on the Trinity here:
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=4831
And a supplemental thread here:
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5169

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21centpilgrim
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:37 pm

dizerner, thanks for the response. that is a huge and lengthy thread on the Trinity.
If Matt. 16 has been abused by the roman Catholics I don't think then that it is off topic to discuss these words of Christ. The confession of Peter, that is revealed to Peter by the Father above, is of extreme importance.
Perhaps this passage and it's implications could be discussed here ?
I am afraid it would get lost or dismissed in the massive 'Trinity' thread.
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

dizerner

Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by dizerner » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:01 pm

Sure. How would you see it as contradicting Trinitarian theology? How do you view the "Son of God" as a distinct and special office (are there other "sons of God")? Do you think I could use the argument that because Christ is called the "Son of Man" that means he can't be the "Son of God"? Do think the rock in this passage is Peter or the confession (or perhaps even Christ himself)? Do you think Peter had a full revelation of Christ that prompted this complete description of who Christ was? Those seem like a good place to start.

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steve
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by steve » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:11 pm

(I was writing this as dizerner was writing his last post, and we posted at almost the same time, which explains why there is some repetition of ideas)

Hi Jeremiah (21centpilgrim),

In answer to your question, I think it would be impossible to argue that the doctrine of the trinity is the foundation of the church, since no passage that speaks of such a foundation makes any mention of the trinity (e.g., Matt.16:18; Luke 6:47-48; 1 Cor.3:11; Eph.2:20; Rev.21:14).

The "rock" in Matthew 16:18 has been variously interpreted by non-Roman Catholic interpreters. I know of the following suggestions:

1) Christ is the Rock (possibly indicated at the time by a gesture of some sort— "Upon this rock...");

2) Peter's confession about Christ is the rock upon which the church is built;

3) The phenomenon of divine revelation ("flesh and blood has not revealed this...but my Father...") is the rock;

4) Peter is the rock, either as an individual, or (more likely) as one of the apostles, since the apostles are identified with the foundation in Ephesians 2:20 and Revelation 21:14).

Even if we allow that the statement refers to Peter himself (as Catholics think to be obvious), it could easily refer to his later functioning as a leader in the Book of Acts. It would lend no support to the doctrine of Petrine primacy, apostolic succession, or any other additional doctrine that specifically bolsters the legitimacy of the later papacy.

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21centpilgrim
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:54 pm

dizerner,
Most Trinitarians, affirm that the Trinity is the orthodox lens to understand who God is, and Peter's confession is not Trinitarian in and of itself. The confession lowers the bar more than most Trinitarians are comfortable with.
Although there were others called sons of God in scripture, Jesus is the unique only begotten Son of the living God, He is the Messiah, the promised seed of Abraham and of Eve, He is born of a virgin and declared multiple times from the Father above as His beloved Son.

The 'rock' in the passage. Thanks Steve for your input on the possibilities you mentioned. I think the options 1,2 and 3 can and do go together. The rock is the confession, the confession is about who Jesus is and this is a divine revelation.

Who is Jesus? This is one of the greatest questions to ever consider and Peter's answer is just as true and needed today as it was 2000 years ago.
Last edited by 21centpilgrim on Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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TheEditor
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by TheEditor » Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:43 pm

It's been a while since I debated a Catholic on this passage, but I recall the NWT used to translate this passage as "You are Peter, and upon this rock-mass I will build my congregation". The most recent revision of the NWT renders it as "rock." The argument, as I remember it, hinged upon the masculine versus the feminine use of petras. They reasoned that since the latter use was feminine, it was a different identity than Peter. They concluded that it was a reference to Christ himself. I tend to think it is not a reference to Peter, for these and other reasons. Jesus is the rejected stone, the stone of stumbling, etc. So I am comfortable with identifying the rock as Jesus, or Peter's confession. If Jesus meant Peter, I suppose he could have simply said "You are Peter, and I shall build my church upon you."

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Homer
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by Homer » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:11 pm

21centpilgrim,

You wrote:
Most Trinitarians, affirm that the Trinity is the orthodox lens to understand who God is, and Peter's confession is not Trinitarian in and of itself. The confession lowers the bar more than most Trinitarians are comfortable with.
Well, I consider myself Trinitarian and I'm very comfortable with the bar being lowered. What is good to believe is more, I think, than what is necessary to be believed, else God has not provided a way for most people to be saved. Most Christians may say they are Trinitarian yet can not explain it.

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Paidion
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by Paidion » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:29 pm

Dizerner wrote:I guess we see, not that one verse, but the entire Bible as the foundation of the church?
Neither that one verse, nor any other verse, nor the entire Bible, is the foundation of "the church" (make that "the Assembly.")

We can read what that foundation is in Ephesians 2:13-21.

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
Paidion

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dizerner

Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by dizerner » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:00 pm

Paidion wrote:
Dizerner wrote:I guess we see, not that one verse, but the entire Bible as the foundation of the church?
Neither that one verse, nor any other verse, nor the entire Bible, is the foundation of "the church" (make that "the Assembly.")

We can read what that foundation is in Ephesians 2:13-21.
Well, that's all very nice to say but how would you even know it without Scripture... it does seem odd that you are using Scripture to say Scripture is not our foundation. Why not just say what some currently say, throw out the Bible since we can all be led directly by the Spirit. No, I say the Bible tells what those prophets and apostles and Christ said and who they were.
Last edited by dizerner on Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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