What is the foundation of the church?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
dizerner

Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by dizerner » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:40 am

BrotherAlan wrote:dizerner wrote:
Also, I think it's a bit confusing to use Scripture to prove a point, when you don't believe it's even an ultimate authority in any way (which Muslims also try to do, and even many on this forum).
Catholics believe the Scripture is the inspired Word of God, having the Holy Spirit (God) as its primary author. Therefore, we Catholics believe the Scripture is an ultimate authority in teaching us faith and morals, even as God Himself is the ultimate authority, for, like I just said, the Scripture is the Word of God ("All Scripture is inspired by God..." (1 Tim. 3:16)). The Magisterium of the Church (headed by the Popes) is simply the ultimate authority in interpreting the Bible, being granted this authority from Christ Himself, who founded the Church, which is the "pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15) upon Peter, the first Pope. As a Protestant looks to a trusted Scripture scholar or pastor to aid him in understanding the Divine Scriptures, a Catholic looks to the greatest of pastors, the Pastors of the Universal Church, i.e., the Roman Pontiffs, the Popes, to help him understand the true meaning of the Holy Scriptures (for the Popes, being the successors of Peter, have the same role that Peter, the first Pastor of the Universal Church, received from Christ to "feed Christ's sheep and lambs").

In Christ, the Supreme Pastor of Souls,
BrotherAlan
Hey. I'm currently in a discussion with someone in the process of converting to your religion of Roman Catholicism. Could you help me understand accurately what role your Pope plays, and what your official documents discuss about his role. He's not completely infallible, correct? But what recourse is taken or method to discover if he errs? Only future Popes? Does any of the other hierarchy in Catholicism have any authority or role in interpreting Scripture? What is the course of action if one's personal conscience contradicts the Pope's interpretation, or if some teacher or pastor contradicts him? I'm very keen on some documents or articles with exact quotes, if you have any, thanks. Thanks for any help if you ever have time.

BrotherAlan
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:42 am

Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by BrotherAlan » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:18 am

dizerner wrote:
Hey. I'm currently in a discussion with someone in the process of converting to your religion of Roman Catholicism. Could you help me understand accurately what role your Pope plays, and what your official documents discuss about his role. He's not completely infallible, correct? But what recourse is taken or method to discover if he errs? Only future Popes? Does any of the other hierarchy in Catholicism have any authority or role in interpreting Scripture? What is the course of action if one's personal conscience contradicts the Pope's interpretation, or if some teacher or pastor contradicts him? I'm very keen on some documents or articles with exact quotes, if you have any, thanks. Thanks for any help if you ever have time.
Thanks for the good questions, dizerner.

I think the best place to go to in order to receive a good summary of the role of the Pope is the documents from the Catholic Church's Vatican II Council and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Role of the Pope and the Faithful in the Church from Catechism: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2A.HTM
Vatican II's Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium): http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_coun ... um_en.html

Do take a look at those links, as they give a nice overview of the role of the Supreme Pontiff, his relationship to the rest of the Church (including the other ministers in the Church, eg., bishops and priests), and to the Scriptures. I can try to summarize it simply in this way: Christ founded a single Church with a hierarchical structure (initially Peter and the Apostles holding authority in the Church; now, their successors, the Pope and bishops); to this Church was entrusted the task of preaching the Gospel (the deposit of Faith), and this Church has done this faithful in two ways, by oral teachings/tradition, and by sacred writings (Sacred Scriptures of the New Testament). Thus, in the Church of Christ, there are three "rules of faith" to which we must adhere: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Oral Tradition, and the Teachings of the Magisterium of the Church. And these three work as one; they are all, in various ways, ultimate authorities in the Church of Christ in determining truths of the Faith (the Scriptures are the Word of God in written form; Sacred Tradition passes on teachings which help us understand better the Scriptures; and the Magisterium, headed by the Pope, has the special sacred charism of being able to finally interpret/understand the Scriptures and Tradition in an authentic and true manner).

It is true that not EVERYTHING the Pope says is infallible or even clearly-or-well stated (something for us to keep in mind especially these days); yet, even those statements should try to be understood in light of what is more clearly stated elsewhere in Christian Scriptures or Doctrine. So, a Pope is NOT always speaking infallibly (when he does, he makes it clear he is doing so by a solemn formula in which we would all recognize he is speaking infallibly). When he does not speak infallibly, we simply judge his words based on the Scriptures when read in the light of authentic Chrsitian tradition. There are enough "fonts" of the Faith, eg., Scripture, Tradition, Liturgy, Common Christian Practice throughout the ages, etc., for us to be able to discern what is an authentic/authoritative and correct teaching of a Pope from one that is not. For, surely, it has happened that a Pope, when not speaking infallibly, has made a mistake, and others corrected him (and, at least in one instant, the Pope accepted the correction and changed his teaching). So, the Church and Her Faith does not EQUAL the Pope and His opinions, as some might think; even though the Pope has been given a special charism to teach infallibly (and, when he does THAT, it is no longer him speaking his own opinion but, rather, the truth of God, and, to that, we must give assent).
What is the course of action if one's personal conscience contradicts the Pope's interpretation, or if some teacher or pastor contradicts him?
It depends the authenticity and authority of the Pope's statement; really depends what the Pope said and with what authority. If any Pope is giving his opinion off-the-cuff on something not directly related to the Faith, then it is just his opinion; he need not be followed (though, his opinoin should at least be respected). But, IF he is giving an interpretation on Christian doctrine that is clearly contrary to authentic established Christian teaching, then THAT also need not be followed. But if any Pope, in coming to further clarify theological developments or end a theological controversy puts forth an infallible decision/decree on such things, which are in-line with all that came before and, above all, with the Scriptures, and are not contrary to the CHurch's clear Faith nor the Scriptures, then that must be accepted with the assent of Faith (for, then, the Pope is speaking as Christ's Vicar....he is speaking for Christ Himself, and must be believed as if it were Christ Himself declaring it to be true).

And, symbolically (and practically), the Pope is to be a sign and a source of Christian unity throughout the world.....

To be honest...it is not always a "cut-and-dry", "black-and-white" issue on this (although, many times it is). But, no time now to go into all the minutiae surrounding this question; I'll just leave it all at that, and I hope that helps for now.

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

dizerner

Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by dizerner » Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:17 pm

BrotherAlan wrote:dizerner wrote:
Hey. I'm currently in a discussion with someone in the process of converting to your religion of Roman Catholicism. Could you help me understand accurately what role your Pope plays, and what your official documents discuss about his role. He's not completely infallible, correct? But what recourse is taken or method to discover if he errs? Only future Popes? Does any of the other hierarchy in Catholicism have any authority or role in interpreting Scripture? What is the course of action if one's personal conscience contradicts the Pope's interpretation, or if some teacher or pastor contradicts him? I'm very keen on some documents or articles with exact quotes, if you have any, thanks. Thanks for any help if you ever have time.
Thanks for the good questions, dizerner.

I think the best place to go to in order to receive a good summary of the role of the Pope is the documents from the Catholic Church's Vatican II Council and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Role of the Pope and the Faithful in the Church from Catechism: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2A.HTM
Vatican II's Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium): http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_coun ... um_en.html

Do take a look at those links, as they give a nice overview of the role of the Supreme Pontiff, his relationship to the rest of the Church (including the other ministers in the Church, eg., bishops and priests), and to the Scriptures. I can try to summarize it simply in this way: Christ founded a single Church with a hierarchical structure (initially Peter and the Apostles holding authority in the Church; now, their successors, the Pope and bishops); to this Church was entrusted the task of preaching the Gospel (the deposit of Faith), and this Church has done this faithful in two ways, by oral teachings/tradition, and by sacred writings (Sacred Scriptures of the New Testament). Thus, in the Church of Christ, there are three "rules of faith" to which we must adhere: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Oral Tradition, and the Teachings of the Magisterium of the Church. And these three work as one; they are all, in various ways, ultimate authorities in the Church of Christ in determining truths of the Faith (the Scriptures are the Word of God in written form; Sacred Tradition passes on teachings which help us understand better the Scriptures; and the Magisterium, headed by the Pope, has the special sacred charism of being able to finally interpret/understand the Scriptures and Tradition in an authentic and true manner).

It is true that not EVERYTHING the Pope says is infallible or even clearly-or-well stated (something for us to keep in mind especially these days); yet, even those statements should try to be understood in light of what is more clearly stated elsewhere in Christian Scriptures or Doctrine. So, a Pope is NOT always speaking infallibly (when he does, he makes it clear he is doing so by a solemn formula in which we would all recognize he is speaking infallibly). When he does not speak infallibly, we simply judge his words based on the Scriptures when read in the light of authentic Chrsitian tradition. There are enough "fonts" of the Faith, eg., Scripture, Tradition, Liturgy, Common Christian Practice throughout the ages, etc., for us to be able to discern what is an authentic/authoritative and correct teaching of a Pope from one that is not. For, surely, it has happened that a Pope, when not speaking infallibly, has made a mistake, and others corrected him (and, at least in one instant, the Pope accepted the correction and changed his teaching). So, the Church and Her Faith does not EQUAL the Pope and His opinions, as some might think; even though the Pope has been given a special charism to teach infallibly (and, when he does THAT, it is no longer him speaking his own opinion but, rather, the truth of God, and, to that, we must give assent).
What is the course of action if one's personal conscience contradicts the Pope's interpretation, or if some teacher or pastor contradicts him?
It depends the authenticity and authority of the Pope's statement; really depends what the Pope said and with what authority. If any Pope is giving his opinion off-the-cuff on something not directly related to the Faith, then it is just his opinion; he need not be followed (though, his opinoin should at least be respected). But, IF he is giving an interpretation on Christian doctrine that is clearly contrary to authentic established Christian teaching, then THAT also need not be followed. But if any Pope, in coming to further clarify theological developments or end a theological controversy puts forth an infallible decision/decree on such things, which are in-line with all that came before and, above all, with the Scriptures, and are not contrary to the CHurch's clear Faith nor the Scriptures, then that must be accepted with the assent of Faith (for, then, the Pope is speaking as Christ's Vicar....he is speaking for Christ Himself, and must be believed as if it were Christ Himself declaring it to be true).

And, symbolically (and practically), the Pope is to be a sign and a source of Christian unity throughout the world.....

To be honest...it is not always a "cut-and-dry", "black-and-white" issue on this (although, many times it is). But, no time now to go into all the minutiae surrounding this question; I'll just leave it all at that, and I hope that helps for now.

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
It helps a lot, thanks for your efforts in this Brother Alan.

BrotherAlan
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:42 am

Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by BrotherAlan » Sat May 14, 2016 9:20 pm

Sure thing, dizerner...Blessed Pentecost to you!

In Christ, the Sender of the Holy Spirit,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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