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Re: Jesus has a God?

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:01 pm
by Jose
dizerner wrote:It was Nicodemus that said "huh" not Jesus.Apparently Jesus wasn't afraid of difficult and confusing language.
He also didn't obfuscate truth by using confusing language. He didn't attempt to reveal spiritual truths by using language that requires rules of grammar and mathematics to be broken.

Re: Jesus has a God?

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:04 pm
by dizerner
Jose wrote:
dizerner wrote:It was Nicodemus that said "huh" not Jesus.Apparently Jesus wasn't afraid of difficult and confusing language.
He also didn't obfuscate truth by using confusing language. He didn't attempt to reveal spiritual truths by using language that requires rules of grammar and mathematics to be broken.
Who revealed it to Peter? Why did Jesus speak in parables? I just can't agree with that. Being "born again" breaks both grammar and mathematics

Re: Jesus has a God?

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:25 pm
by Jose
dizerner wrote:Who revealed it to Peter? Why did Jesus speak in parables? I just can't agree with that. Being "born again" breaks both grammar and mathematics.
Trinitarianism requires that we say "He are three" and "they is one" and that when we think and speak of one God we are to understand that it doesn't really mean one, but actually three.

Neither the father declaring to Peter that Jesus is the Christ, nor Jesus declaring that one must be born again violates any rule of grammar or mathematics. On the other hand Jesus said that God is ONE and to love HIM is the greatest commandment. I guess what Jesus really meant was that God is three and we are to love them with all our heart. That's a little misleading from the mouth of the one whom we believe to be the Truth, the Way and the Life.

Re: Jesus has a God?

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:35 pm
by dizerner
We are "one" body right? Would you say "the church are holy"? Paul said we use spiritual language for spiritual things. Christ and the Father are one... even if it's metaphorical, you still can't say that is only ever strictly grammatical and mathematical, it seems to me. Why can't Three be One? And many Scriptures are misleading all on their own, without taking everything into account. Even the understanding of numbers or plurals—how can we fit spiritual truth into mere logic? The same kind of argument can be used against all of Christian teaching and the Bible by atheists—it's just not logical, it's misleading, etc. I think being born again is a term that you are so used to, you are not thinking about how it really did break Nicodemus' understanding. The Trinity doesn't literally break math and logic. A plural unity is a common thing. Even a husband can say "I'm having a baby" in modern parlence, yet no one objects to that language as being deliberately deceitful. None of this is a "proof" per se, but if the Bible is spiritual language a single personal pronoun could represent more than one, it's a possibility and it's not deceitful.

Jesus has a God?

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:46 pm
by Jose
dizerner wrote:We are "one" body right? Would you say "the church are holy"? Paul said we use spiritual language for spiritual things. Christ and the Father are one... even if it's metaphorical, you still can't say that is only ever strictly grammatical and mathematical, it seems to me. Why can't Three be One?
Yes, the church IS one with many members. The same way that one loaf of bread is one loaf whether it be sliced or unsliced. The problem is that when Jesus said Yahweh is one, he was not referring to a multiplicity of beings, he was speaking only about his father, whom he declared to be the only God.

Jesus has a God?

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:17 pm
by Jose
If trinitarianism allows us to bend the use of the pronoun "him" to refer to "three" persons, will it allow that we use the pronouns "they" or "them" to refer to only "one" of "them"? If not, why not?

Re: Jesus has a God?

Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:30 pm
by 21centpilgrim
It says in 1 Cor. 15 that 'When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.'
If Jesus prays and talks of the glory that He had with the Father before the foundation of the world in John 15, that that same glory is what He asks to be glorified with, and we see that Jesus is in subordination to the Father for eternity future, then doesn't it seem to make sense that the Son was in subordination in eternity past?
Is this not a lessor glory?

Thanks

Re: Jesus has a God?

Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:55 pm
by dizerner
If it is a lesser glory, that would mean Jesus gave up something, wouldn't it?

Re: Jesus has a God?

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:22 pm
by Paidion
Jesus said that the Father is greater than He. This does not refer to their divinity. The Son is equally divine. My understanding is that the Father is greater positionally.
From the beginning, the Son always obeyed the Father, continued to obey Him while here on earth, and will continue to obey Him forever.

As for "eternity past", if there were such a thing, what was God doing during such an eternity prior to his begetting of the Son and his creating all things through Him? Just sitting there for an eternity doing nothing?

I affirm that there was a beginning to time, and there was no "before" that beginning—also that the concept of "outside of time" is unintelligible. However, that is a different discussion.

Re: Jesus has a God?

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:41 am
by dizerner
Just sitting there for an eternity doing nothing?
Or maybe getting really good at ping pong? I think our minds are used to certain gymnastics to keep us from boredom that God doesn't need. It is after all an expression of limitation and lack.