Jesus became a life giving spirit

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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backwoodsman
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Re: Jesus became a life giving spirit

Post by backwoodsman » Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:41 pm

Paidion wrote:First of all, I am not a Modalist. A Modalist believes that God is a single Individual who expresses Himself in three modes: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (but all three are the same Person). They compare it to an actor in olden times who wore three different masks. My position is that the Father and the Son are two distinct divine Individuals, the Father having begotten the Son as his first act. The Father and Son are exactly the same in character, and they come to God's children as the Holy Spirit—the extension of their Persons. This I see as the Christian understanding during the first two centuries.
Fair enough; I thought I remembered from past discussions that you were modalist. But I don't see that it changes anything regarding the current discussion or my comments above. It seems to me that your view as you describe it shares that and other fatal flaws with modalism. It's just too clear at too many points in Scripture that the Holy Spirit is a closely intertwined but distinct personality from Jesus and the Father.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus became a life giving spirit

Post by Paidion » Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:25 pm

Backwoodsman, Justin Martyr, a Christian who lived from 110 to165 A.D., had a discussion with a Jewish man, Trypho (and some of his companions) which lasted several days. Justin was showing from the Hebrew writings that God had begotten His Son before all ages, and compared this begetting to lighting a small fire from a large one. Justin affirmed also that the Son shared the Name “Yahweh” with the Father. He argued that in Genesis 19:24, there were two individuals who were called “Yahweh”, One in heaven (the Father), and One on earth (the Son) who was talking to Abraham. Justin also showed from many Scriptures that the Son of God was born on earth as a human being and that He was the promised Messiah.

Both Justin and Trypho throughout their dialogue had been referring to the Holy Spirit. Surely Trypho did not think of the Holy Spirit as a different Individual from the Father. For as a Jew he believed that God is a single Individual and that there is no other who is worthy of worship and is called God.

It is interesting that at one point, Justin asked Trypho this question:

“Do you think that any other one is said to be worthy of worship and called Lord and God in the Scriptures, except the Maker of all, and Messiah, who by so many Scriptures was proved to you to have become man?”

Trypho replied, “How can we admit this, when we have instituted so great an inquiry as to whether there is any other than the Father alone?”

If Justin had been a Trinitarian, this would have been a perfect opportunity to present the Holy Spirit as the Third Person of the Trinity. But he didn't. Instead, he said:

“I must ask you this also, that I may know whether or not you are of a different opinion from that which you admitted some time ago.”

Thus although Justin and Trypho had both referred to the Holy Spirit many times in their dialogue, neither one of them thought of the Spirit as a distinct from the Father (or in Justin's mind, the Spirit was not distinct from the Father and the Son).
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus became a life giving spirit

Post by Paidion » Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:53 pm

Hi Dizerner, you wrote:Which has more explanatory power for the Spirit not being (often) prayed to in the Bible or early Christian fathers:

1. The Spirit is just another word for Jesus and the Father, just like Lord is. Do we have prayers that are addressed to the "Lord"? Why is "Lord" acceptable to pray to but "Spirit" not?

2. We have a 3rd Person to whom prayer is simply not commonly offered, because his function is to help us pray and mediate and enact God's covenant.
In the first one you have misrepresented my position and then demolished that misrepresentation. That is known as attacking a straw man. I have never suggested that the Spirit is just another word for Jesus and the Father, as "Lord" is. Clearly the Spirit is different from the Father and the Son. But that fact does not imply that the Spirit is a different PERSON. The Father is in heaven with the Son seated at his right hand. (Col 3:1). Yet they also came to live in those who love Jesus and keep his word as Jesus promised. How is this possible? They do this through the extension of their Persons, which is the Holy Spirit.

Also the statement I made later does NOT depict a false dilemma:

There is no dilemma of any kind, false or true, in this statement. I was just stating a fact. First I quoted the following passage, adding explanatory words :
But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they [the Jews] read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord [Jesus], the veil is removed. Now the Lord [Jesus] is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord [Jesus] is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord [Jesus], are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord [Jesus] who is the Spirit.(2 Cor 3:14-16 ESV, bracketed explanatory words mine)
Then I made the following statement:
Of course, if one has been convinced that the Holy Spirit is a third divine Person different from the Father and the Son, this will make no sense, and he must explain it some other way
Don't you have an explanation of the passage that differs from mine? Could you believe the Holy Spirit to be a third divine Person, distinct from the Father and the Son and still explain the passage in the same way that I understand it?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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paulespino
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Re: Jesus became a life giving spirit

Post by paulespino » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:22 pm

35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”;[a] the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven
.
I think we need to put v.45 in its context in order to understand the idea that Paul is trying to communicate to us and to do that we need to start reading from v.35 to v.48. We will understand that the message that Paul is trying to communicate to us is about the resurrection of the body. Paul contrasted the natural body (Not resurrected body) with Risen body (Resurrected body) in different ways.
In v.42 natural body is (perishable) while
Risen body (imperishable).
V.43 natural body (dishonor) while Risen body (glorified)
V.44 natural body (natural body) while
Risen body (spiritual)
V.45 natural body (first Adam and living being while Risen body (last Adam and life giving spirit).
Therefore if we will follow the pattern of Paul's examples regarding natural body and Risen body we can conclude that the phrase "life giving spirit" is referring to The Resurrected body.
The phrase "Life giving spirit " is just a description that Paul gave for the resurrected body.Also a Risen body is eternal that is why he uses the phrase life giving spirit to describe the resurrected body.

dizerner

Re: Jesus became a life giving spirit

Post by dizerner » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:15 pm

In the first one you have misrepresented my position and then demolished that misrepresentation.
I think straw man is the single most incorrectly applied fallacy of all time. One can simply always claim it to get out of any argument. One can make one's position so nuanced, that the other side can literally never articulate it to the opposition's satisifaction. We see that very often with Calvinists, where all arguments are reduced to "misunderstanding" of the position, to the point of absurdity at times. (Take a look at this page for a great example: https://soteriology101.wordpress.com/20 ... calvinism/ ).
I have never suggested that the Spirit is just another word for Jesus and the Father... Clearly the Spirit is different.. But not a different PERSON... They do this through the extension of their Persons, which is the Holy Spirit.
Read this a few times, and tell me that you don't think it sounds like doublespeak. You say the Spirit is different but the same persons. That means no matter what I say I can be claimed to be straw manning, because you take both sides.
Of course, if one has been convinced that the Holy Spirit is a third divine Person different from the Father and the Son, this will make no sense
There is no dilemma of any kind, false or true, in this statement.
You made a proposition:

1. If one is convinced of the Trinity, this passage makes no sense.
2. If one is not convinced of the Trinity, this passage makes sense.

Now that's called an either/or proposition. The dilemma you created was "spirit" has to only be Jesus or only be the Holy Spirit.

You really think that every Trinitarian reads this passage and thinks "Woah! This completely contradicts the Trinity, what will I do?" No, of course not. In fact there's even more than one interpretation that fits Trinitarian theology, and one that even could be seen to agree with your theory that the Spirit refers here to Jesus' personal spirit. Because Jesus has a spirit that is not the Holy Spirit but the spirit of his humanity. However, the Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Jesus, and there is also no reason at all he couldn't be the Spirit in this passage.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus became a life giving spirit

Post by Paidion » Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:19 am

All I can say, Diz, is that you continue dizzily to misunderstand me, and so there' s no where for me to go with this.
You have offered no convincing argument whatever in counteraction to the position I have taken.
In any case, Merry Christmas!
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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