Jesus became a life giving spirit

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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21centpilgrim
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Jesus became a life giving spirit

Post by 21centpilgrim » Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:22 pm

1 Cor. 15:45
Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit."

The standard orthodox belief is that Jesus is God and has always been God the Son with God the Father. This verse seems to challenge that assumption.

The last Adam- Jesus- became something that he was not before, it says.
Now i know in the greek the word become in this verse is used only once the first time when talking of Adam but most translators freely use it in reference to Christ because they think the parallel between the two in this saying in meaning that very thing.

Thoughts?

Thanks
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

dizerner

Re: Jesus became a life giving spirit

Post by dizerner » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:10 pm

When Jesus became flesh it was a real change in his nature, however we view that. The Bible indicates Jesus gave something up in real, not just metaphorical, sense. So the incarnation, however we view it, if we view it Biblically, it seems to me we must admit to a change in the nature of Jesus, because after the incarnation in time, Jesus would be (under Trinitarian belief) both fully God and fully man in one being. Once Jesus becomes a man, he can experience things in time and he can experience limitations.

This is how we can say Jesus became a man (in time), Jesus died on a Cross and was resurrected three days later (in time), Jesus ascended and intercedes currently at the right hand of the Father (in time), Jesus bore our sins (in time) and Jesus became a life-giving Spirit (in time). This is how we can say Jesus had a God, or the Father is greater than Jesus, or Jesus came to be the final and ultimate representative of the one true God.

However to view Jesus as a sufficient sacrifice for sin, we have to view him as capable of the capacity of the amount of wrath God has against sin. He has to be capable of bridging the gap between Creator and creation that sin had caused—and capable of bridging that gap for every human being. He has to reach a level of perfection and power that it would be hard to see a fallen son of Adam, or even just a creation, ever reaching.

There are different views and understandings of Jesus' nature besides my Trinitarian one, of course. I find it Biblical and have all the Scriptures to stand by it. But if you are interested in learning more, maybe check out this website http://trinities.org/blog/ and this recently published book The Son of God: Three Views of the Identity of Jesus http://wipfandstock.com/the-son-of-god-13155.html for more explanation.

Also, I don't think the emphasis is on "becoming a spirit" but rather, that Jesus' spirit became "life-giving." It was a new attribute his spirit took on, he being the Vine, and we the branches, due to his Cross-work.
Last edited by dizerner on Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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steve
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Re: Jesus became a life giving spirit

Post by steve » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:23 pm

It is a perplexing verse, and seems, prima facie, to support modalism. There is, however, a probable reference to the resurrection body of Christ being a "spiritual" body (a term used in the previous verse). Since Jesus' body, when resurrected, was demonstrably physical (as our glorified bodies, apparently, will also be), it seems strange to refer to such bodies in spiritual terms.

The fact that the "spiritual" body, of verse 44, is contrasted with a "natural" body (rather than contrasted with a "physical" body) suggests that "spiritual" emphasizes the supernatural nature of the resurrected body, rather than its non-physicality. The fact that Christ's resurrected body is physical and "spiritual" suggests to my mind a capacity to materialize and to dematerialize at will. I know this sounds kind of "sci-fi," but it would seem to fit the known facts:

a) that Christ's body was continuous with his physical body is seen in the disappearance of the latter from the tomb at the time of the resurrection;

b) that Christ ate and drank physical food, and invited the disciples to touch Him, having flesh and bones, unlike a "spirit" (Luke 24:39) presents the resurrected body in a physical manifestation;

c) that His body could seemingly disappear, change its appearance, and even exist in heaven for the past 2000 years (among God and angels, who are spirits), suggests that the resurrected body can defy mere laws of physicality, and take on the nature of a "spirit."

These are my musings. They are not put forward as dogma.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus became a life giving spirit

Post by Paidion » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:46 pm

Well, here's a third interpretation, one I believe to be in harmony with other passages in the New Testament. First what I believe to be the correct translation of the sentence:
The last Adam became the life-giving Spirit.
.

"Ahhh...," you say, "but 'spirit' does not have the article." True, but irrelevant. I did a search for "spirit" in my Online Bible program, and in the first four results, the word referred to the Holy Spirit, but the word has no article. Here are the first four verses in the New Testament that contain the word "spirit":
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 1:20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
Matthew 3:16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him.
In none of these verses is there an article modifying "Spirit" or "Holy Spirit." And I don't think anyone would want to translate "the Holy Spirit" in the first three as "a holy spirit." Nor would they want to say that Jesus saw "a spirit of God" descending on Him.

So what would it mean for Jesus to become THE life-giving Spirit, that is, the Holy Spirit? And where else does the New Testament indicate such?

The meaning is that Jesus, while He walked this earth was fully human. But when He died and God raised Him to life again, He became the Holy Spirit that indwells his disciples.

Where else does the New Testament indicate this?
But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they [the Jews] read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord [Jesus], the veil is removed. Now the Lord [Jesus] is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord [Jesus] is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord [Jesus], are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord [Jesus] who is the Spirit.(2 Cor 3:14-16 ESV, bracketed explanatory words mine)
Twice in this passage the Lord Jesus is declared to be THE Spirit (the article IS present in this passage), and that would be after He was raised from the dead. Of course, if one has been convinced that the Holy Spirit is a third divine Person different from the Father and the Son, this will make no sense, and he must explain it some other way. But if we can accept that the Holy Spirit is the extension of the Persons of the Father and of the Son, it makes perfect sense. That's why Jesus said if He should not go away, the Spirit would not come to his disciples:
Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I should not go away, the Advocate would not come to you; but if I should go, I will send him to you. (John 16:7)
There is only one future tense in this verse, and that is the verb in "I will send him to you." The rest of the verbs are in the subjunctive mode. Thus He seems to say that He must go away, die, and be raised or the Holy Spirit, the Advocate could not come. Why couldn't the Holy Spirit, the Advocate come to them while Jesus was still with them? Because the Lord Jesus IS the Spirit as I showed from the verses quoted above. While He lived as a total human being on earth, his spirit was confined to his body. But when He was raised, He became the Spirit again. Jesus promised that He and the Father would love anyone who kept his word, and that He and the Father could come to him and make their home with him (John 14:23). How would they do that? By extending their persons into Jesus' disciples. And that extension of their Persons IS the Holy Spirit.

Another support I have for my understanding that Jesus IS the Spirit, the Advocate, is that He is called "the Advocate" in 1 John 2:1.
Paidion

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backwoodsman
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Re: Jesus became a life giving spirit

Post by backwoodsman » Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:28 am

21centpilgrim wrote:The last Adam- Jesus- became something that he was not before, it says.
The English makes it look that way, but it doesn't appear to be supported by the Greek. If you look at Thayer's lexicon and the various ways it's translated, you'll see that it can mean not only to be made or to become, but also to come to pass, to appear in history, etc.
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fus ... inomai.htm
http://biblehub.com/greek/1096.htm
Now i know in the greek the word become in this verse is used only once the first time when talking of Adam but most translators freely use it in reference to Christ because they think the parallel between the two in this saying in meaning that very thing.
Ginomai is not repeated, but the preposition 'eis' is there -- into, unto, to, towards, for, among, according to Thayer.

All this considered, it seems to me dizerner is correct that the emphasis is on the life-giving rather than the becoming.
Paidion wrote:
Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I should not go away, the Advocate would not come to you; but if I should go, I will send him to you. (John 16:7)
[...] Why couldn't the Holy Spirit, the Advocate come to them while Jesus was still with them? Because the Lord Jesus IS the Spirit as I showed from the verses quoted above.
It doesn't say can't come, it says won't come; but let's go with can't for the moment, just for the sake of argument. Taken out of its immediate context and that of the rest of Scripture, that could look like a strong indication that your modalism is correct. But the same verse contains a phrase that, whether in or out of context, seems to say plainly that modalism is incorrect: "I will send him to you." That is, I (Jesus) will send him (someone other than Jesus). 'Send' means the one sent goes, while the one sending stays where he is. Either Jesus and the Spirit are somehow two different personalities, or Jesus is being a little deceptive with His language by making it appear that there's someone else involved, when it's actually still just Jesus Himself.

dizerner

Re: Jesus became a life giving spirit

Post by dizerner » Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:38 am

backwoodsman wrote:Either Jesus and the Spirit are somehow two different personalities, or Jesus is being a little deceptive with His language by making it appear that there's someone else involved, when it's actually still just Jesus Himself.
Not only that—but if the early church or Biblical authors saw the Holy Spirit as the extended personality of Father and/or Son, why is he never prayed to? It would only be natural.

paulespino
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Re: Jesus became a life giving spirit

Post by paulespino » Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:23 pm

Hi Paidion,
According to your exegesis, you are saying that the Spirit is Jesus. I just have a question.

Now the Lord [Jesus] is the Spirit, (this phrase is telling us that the Lord is the Spirit.

and where the Spirit of the Lord [Jesus] is (But this phrase tells us that Jesus has a Spirit)

Is Jesus the Spirit or does he have a Spirit?
Last edited by paulespino on Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus became a life giving spirit

Post by Paidion » Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:04 pm

Backwoodsman, you wrote:It doesn't say can't come, it says won't come; but let's go with can't for the moment, just for the sake of argument. Taken out of its immediate context and that of the rest of Scripture, that could look like a strong indication that your modalism is correct. But the same verse contains a phrase that, whether in or out of context, seems to say plainly that modalism is incorrect: "I will send him to you." That is, I (Jesus) will send him (someone other than Jesus). 'Send' means the one sent goes, while the one sending stays where he is. Either Jesus and the Spirit are somehow two different personalities, or Jesus is being a little deceptive with His language by making it appear that there's someone else involved, when it's actually still just Jesus Himself.
First of all, I am not a Modalist. A Modalist believes that God is a single Individual who expresses Himself in three modes: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (but all three are the same Person). They compare it to an actor in olden times who wore three different masks. My position is that the Father and the Son are two distinct divine Individuals, the Father having begotten the Son as his first act. The Father and Son are exactly the same in character, and they come to God's children as the Holy Spirit—the extension of their Persons. This I see as the Christian understanding during the first two centuries.

"I will send him (or perhaps 'it') to you" does not imply that the Spirit was someone other than Jesus. I think Jesus meant that though He would reside in heaven after his ascension, seated at the right hand of the Father, He would send his very Person, his extended Person to dwell in the hearts of them that love Him. Indeed, He promised that He would come to them, though the world would not see Him:
"I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?”

Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
(John 14:18-23)
Did Jesus fulfill his promise? Yes He did. He did this by sending his spirit. The Father also sent his. Not that there were two holy spirits. The spirit of the Father and the spirit of Jesus were "mingled" into one Spirit. Both Father and Son came and indwelt those who love Jesus and keep his word. That word is expressed in Matt 5, 6, and 7 as well as elsewhere.
Dizerner, you wrote:...if the early church or Biblical authors saw the Holy Spirit as the extended personality of Father and/or Son, why is he never prayed to? It would only be natural.
That the Holy Spirit was seen as the extended personality of Father and/or Son, is exactly the reason the Holy Spirit was NOT prayed to. They simply addressed the Father or the Son in prayer, for They WERE the Spirit. A more meaningful question would be, "If the Holy Spirit is a Person who is distinct from the Persons of the Father and the Son, why was He never prayed to? In our day when Trinitarianism is a prevailing opinion in Christendom, the Holy Spirit is addressed both in prayer and in song. For the Spirit is considered to be a distinct Individual. Example:
Come Holy Spirit, I need You. Come Holy Spirit, I pray.
Come with your strength and your power;
Come in your own special way.
You can listen to this song here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9JP68dl5U0
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: Jesus became a life giving spirit

Post by dizerner » Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:22 pm

That the Holy Spirit was seen as the extended personality of Father and/or Son, is exactly the reason the Holy Spirit was NOT prayed to. They simply addressed the Father or the Son in prayer, for They WERE the Spirit. A more meaningful question would be, "If the Holy Spirit is a Person who is distinct from the Persons of the Father and the Son, why was He never prayed to? In our day when Trinitarianism is a prevailing opinion in Christendom, the Holy Spirit is addressed both in prayer and in song. For the Spirit is considered to be a distinct Individual
Here's the question though:

Which has more explanatory power for the Spirit not being (often) prayed to in the Bible or early Christian fathers:

1. The Spirit is just another word for Jesus and the Father, just like Lord is. Do we have prayers that are addressed to the "Lord"? Why is "Lord" acceptable to pray to but "Spirit" not?

2. We have a 3rd Person to whom prayer is simply not commonly offered, because his function is to help us pray and mediate and enact God's covenant.
Of course, if one has been convinced that the Holy Spirit is a third divine Person different from the Father and the Son, this will make no sense, and he must explain it some other way.
I'm not sure what this fallacy is called, but it's trying to give your opponent a dilemma he simply doesn't have. Every Trinitarian under the sun believes Jesus is a real human being, and all human beings have a spirit. There is no "dilemma" or logical problem to even answer.

dizerner

Re: Jesus became a life giving spirit

Post by dizerner » Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:24 pm

Ah! The "False dilemma" fallacy! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

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