Why do no Hymns Speak of God Raising Jesus?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Paidion
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Why do no Hymns Speak of God Raising Jesus?

Post by Paidion » Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:12 pm

On Sunday, there will be many resurrection hymns sung throughout North America. All of them are worded as if Jesus raised Himself from death. For example, "Up from the grave He arose, with a mighty triumph oe'r His foes. He arose a victor from the dark domain..."

However in the New Testament, it is stated at least 13 times that God raised Him from the dead. There are others, too, that speak of God raising Him, but they may not be referring to His resurrection.

In the king James, we also find refences to "He is risen" but these are in the passive voice, and should NOT be translated as "He has risen" but rather "He has been raised." To say that "He has been raised" again implies that God raised Him (who else?) This expression occurs at least 16 times in the New Testament.

In Acts 10:41, most translations read as "After He arose from the dead." But the Greek has it, "After the raising of Him from the dead." The Greek implies that someone raised Him from the dead. Who else but God?

There is only one passage in the entire New Testament that suggests that Jesus raised Himself from the dead. It is found in John 2:19-22:
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews [who took Him literally] then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days? But He was speaking of the temple of His body. When, therefore, He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this, and they believed the scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

Could Jesus have been prophesying? Could these words have been those of the Father speaking through Him?

In any case, here is the matter that puzzles me. Why is there not even one resurrection hymn that states that God raised Jesus from the dead, while the New Testament has so many statements that affirm that God raised Him?
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: Why do no Hymns Speak of God Raising Jesus?

Post by Homer » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:31 am

Paidion,

Another one that might be seen as implying Jesus could raise himself:

John 10:18 (NASB)

18. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

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Paidion
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Re: Why do no Hymns Speak of God Raising Jesus?

Post by Paidion » Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:26 pm

Thank you for your response, Homer. I thought someone might bring forth that passage, and I can see why it could be interpreted that way, but it can also be interpreted differently:

John 10:
14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

Another way a person can lay down his life is by serving other people rather than living his life for himself. A good shepherd does that, in that he spends his life caring for his sheep.
So Jesus has lain down his own life to care for his "sheep"—his disciples. But Jesus says He has the authority from the Father to take up that life again. He did that after the Father raised Him from the dead, by going to the Father, and leaving his sheep behind.

Here is another passage that indicates Jesus giving up his personal life as a means of deliverance in place of many:

Matthew 20
25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.
26 It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,
27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave,
28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

In most other places where it speaks of Jesus dying for us, the word "for" is "ὑπερ" which means "for the sake of." In the New Testament, is "ἀντι" (in place of) never used for that purpose. But in verse 28 above, the word translated as "for" is "ἀντι." This Greek preposition means "instead of" or "in place of". Jesus said in the passage above that he who would be great among his disciples, must be their servant (deacon) or even their slave (δουλος vs27). He indicated that He Himself did not come to be served but to serve (verbal form of "deacon", but I guess we cannot say in English that He came to "deac"). And to "give his life"—again to give up any possible self-interest—in order to serve.

To give his life as a means of loosing or freeing in place of many. The word translated as "ransom" is "λυτρον". This word is derived from "λυω," which means "to loose" or "to free." Thus the nominal form means "a means of loosing or freeing." True, the word has been used in the sense of "ransom." For you can free someone by paying a ransom, but I think it is used here in its more primary meaning.
By giving up his self-life in this world to serve others and to free them from physical sickness, blindness, and even sin, this was a substitution. The victims didn't have to solve their own problems; Jesus solved them in their place.

So Jesus' death was not a substitutionary death (instead of), but a beneficiary death (for the sake of). However, his life was a substitutionary life.
Paidion

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BrotherAlan
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Re: Why do no Hymns Speak of God Raising Jesus?

Post by BrotherAlan » Tue May 17, 2016 1:54 am

Paidion wrote:
Why is there not even one resurrection hymn that states that God raised Jesus from the dead, while the New Testament has so many statements that affirm that God raised Him?
I'm not sure about how many resurrections hymns there are which refer to God raising Christ from the dead, but, regardless of that answer, the fact is that it is perfectly fine to say that God (i.e., God the Father) raised Jesus from the dead as it is perfectly fine to say that Jesus raised Himself from the dead; for, as both God the Father and God the Son, aka., Jesus, possess the one and the same divine nature, each has divine power, and it was by this divine power that Jesus' resurrection took place.

In the Risen Christ,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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Paidion
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Re: Why do no Hymns Speak of God Raising Jesus?

Post by Paidion » Tue May 17, 2016 1:03 pm

Yes, Jesus and the Father possess the same divine nature (ὑποστασις), but a "nature" is not a person.
The Father is a Person, and the scriptures affirm that it was He who raised Jesus from the dead.
When Jesus died, He was truly dead. A dead person cannot raise Himself.

In any case, this discussion is not the purpose of this thread. It's just that I marvel that so many scriptures affirm that the Father raised Him, whereas I know of no hymn that states it. All of them are similar to the song "Up from the grave He arose", etc.
Paidion

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Re: Why do no Hymns Speak of God Raising Jesus?

Post by crgfstr1 » Wed May 18, 2016 11:01 am

Two things:

1) "Up from the grave He arose" is a factual statement that could also be said for Lazarus. It doesn't state what caused him to rise up.

2) I think God is somewhat unfathomable for the Human brain. I think our ability to discuss what the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are and aren't and what it means to be one are a problem that our language is not equipped to address. The statement "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it" isn't a philosophical debate. It is a matter of how the word sound is defined. Was it defined adequately enough to address a more complex concept then the one who defined it imagined. Is it different in different languages.

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Re: Why do no Hymns Speak of God Raising Jesus?

Post by BrotherAlan » Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:29 am

Paidion wrote:
Yes, Jesus and the Father possess the same divine nature (ὑποστασις), but a "nature" is not a person.
The Father is a Person, and the scriptures affirm that it was He who raised Jesus from the dead.
When Jesus died, He was truly dead. A dead person cannot raise Himself.
The last statement here, "A dead person cannot raise Himself," gets to the crux of the question, "Who is Jesus?" If we believe that Jesus is a human person, not a divine person, then, surely, He would not be able to raise Himself from the dead, as no human person can raise Himself from the dead. But, if we believe that Jesus is a Divine Person, who, in addition to having His divine nature from all eternity, also took to Himself a human nature in the womb of the Holy Virgin, then Jesus, even though He was dead, by the power He possessed in His divine nature, could raise Himself according to His human nature. And, this would not contradict the fact that the Father also raised Christ from the dead, for when any one of the Three Divine Persons-- the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit-- act in the created world, they Each act together (although, for various reasons, certain actions are appropriated to one Person rather than another, eg., creation is appropriated to the Father, even though the Son and the Holy Spirit, with the Father, also create, to cite just one example).

crgfstr1 wrote:
I think God is somewhat unfathomable for the Human brain. I think our ability to discuss what the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are and aren't and what it means to be one are a problem that our language is not equipped to address. The statement "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it" isn't a philosophical debate. It is a matter of how the word sound is defined. Was it defined adequately enough to address a more complex concept then the one who defined it imagined. Is it different in different languages.
God is not "somewhat" unfathomable for the human brain; He is utterly unfathomable. That being said, human language can communicate certain real truths about God; indeed, God Himself utilized simple human languages to communicate certain truths about Himself to us. We have a duty to try to use human language in this life to help us understand God better lest we, having received the seed of the Word of God, yet failing to understand it deeply, allow Satan to snatch that Word from us, as Christ the Lord in His Parable warned us could happen....(And, for the record, with respect to that old question, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?", since sound is defined as, "That which is heard," we can simply say that the tree makes a sound potentially, though not actually; that is, it produces the physical effects that, if a hearing ear is around to hear it, will create a sound in that ear...but, so long as no hearing ear is there, no sound is actually produced, as sound can only exist in an ear that hears).

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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Re: Why do no Hymns Speak of God Raising Jesus?

Post by crgfstr1 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:16 am

BrotherAlan wrote:...(And, for the record, with respect to that old question, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?", since sound is defined as, "That which is heard," we can simply say that the tree makes a sound potentially, though not actually; that is, it produces the physical effects that, if a hearing ear is around to hear it, will create a sound in that ear...but, so long as no hearing ear is there, no sound is actually produced, as sound can only exist in an ear that hears).

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
Thank you BrotherAlan. Here is one definition I have seen for the noun sound.

1.
vibrations that travel through the air or another medium and can be heard when they reach a person's or animal's ear.
2.
sound produced by continuous and regular vibrations, as opposed to noise.

With the first definition it didn't make a sound unless heard. By the second definition it may have. I also wonder if these are more modern translations once the question was posed in order to put an end to the debate. It is interesting that it says person or animal's ear. What about insects that feel the vibrations with their antennae rather than ear? Another definition:

a : a particular auditory impression : tone
b : the sensation perceived by the sense of hearing

Seems the insect would qualify by this definition because the sensation would be perceived.

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Re: Why do no Hymns Speak of God Raising Jesus?

Post by Paidion » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:34 am

Brother Alan wrote:The last statement here, "A dead person cannot raise Himself," gets to the crux of the question, "Who is Jesus?" If we believe that Jesus is a human person, not a divine person, then, surely, He would not be able to raise Himself from the dead, as no human person can raise Himself from the dead. But, if we believe that Jesus is a Divine Person, who, in addition to having His divine nature from all eternity, also took to Himself a human nature in the womb of the Holy Virgin, then Jesus, even though He was dead, by the power He possessed in His divine nature, could raise Himself according to His human nature.
[Underlining mine]

But there's the rub—the underlined words.
The following passage indicates that He divested Himself of His divine attributes (which collectively form His divine nature) when He became man.

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. (Philippians 2:5-7 RSV)

The word translated as "grasped" can be "to hang onto, retain." Instead of retaining equality of God, He let go of it, emptied Himself of all divine attributes, and took the form of a slave. He became fully human, retaining nothing of His former existence except His identity as the Son of God. He could do no miracles while on earth. The miracles that are attributed to Him were performed by the Father THROUGH Him. He said that He could do nothing of Himself. The Father who dwelt in Him did the works.
Because He became fully human, He had a human death and therefore could not raise Himself.
Paidion

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Re: Why do no Hymns Speak of God Raising Jesus?

Post by crgfstr1 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:41 pm

Paidion, isn't it possible that his letting go ended ended at the time of his death?

While I agree during his life the acts were of the Father but weren't they through the Holy Spirit? Wondering why you left that part out.

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