John 9 and God's purpose in the man's blindness

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Jason
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Re: John 9 and God's purpose in the man's blindness

Post by Jason » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:05 am

Okay, i just finished the whole thing and read Matt's comments too. I guess we were thinking the exact same thing!

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mattrose
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Re: John 9 and God's purpose in the man's blindness

Post by mattrose » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:26 am

steve7150 wrote:Why did God pass through to Adam's descendants the curses or punishments that were attributable to Adam and Eve?
I don't think of 'original sin' as some thing God passes down to each generation. I think each generation is influenced by those who come before them and, therefore, each generation in many ways reproduces itself in the next.
Why not let them mature and then test them again
I think God does, in fact, let each person mature / tests them again.
or simply destroy them and start over, since the wages of sin is death?
I think God's preference is to work with and through problems rather than destroy and start over.
In what way did the testing agent rebel against God since he tested Eve?


I think this is very unclear in Scripture. I don't think the first test was necessarily an act of rebellion. I think it is possible that the devil and Eve's fall was nearly simultaneous (she failed the test, he liked the feeling of having tricked her). It's pure speculation. It does seem clear, though, that he is in rebellion since then.
If he did rebel against God why punish Adam & Eve and all their descendants?
They suffered the consequences for their own rebellion.
If he didn't rebel against God, why curse Satan?
He did.
Why does Satan deserve free will?


No one 'deserves' free will. It is a gift of God. So, if the question is: "Why give Satan free will?" I'd say the answer is because it was a loving thing to do.
Why not destroy him?


If God destroyed everyone who abused the gift of free will, would that really be a 'gift'?
It seems he outgrew his mission as just a tester and is called "a murderer from the beginning" which sounds like more then a tester?


Yes, I agree. I think he switched, in his rebellion, from being a tester (giving a test to help humans grow) to being a tempter (giving a test to cause human failure).
Back to #4 , Adam's rebellion made our maturation process more difficult? It didn't have to be since God could have reacted differently so it seems to allow the possibility that maybe the maturation process being more difficult is actually God's plan.
The maturation process is about learning to love in a mature way (other-oriented, like God). The first sin took people off that maturation path by turning their focus inward (they became accusers of each other, looking out for their own best interest). The maturation process is more difficult since 'the fall' because of this inward focus / selfishness. I'm not sure what reaction on God's part you're referring to, so I'm not sure what different reactions you have in mind. I think God's plan was to help us mature. I don't see how us being more stubbornly immature was God's plan. Thankfully, God continues to work out His plan despite the fact that we make the process more difficult.

Thank you so much for the follow up to my list of statements. I appreciate it. It's not a list I had pre-made. I just typed it out to create some healthy dialogue. I'm sure a number of the points are in need of fine tuning AND I know that a number of the points are more speculative than Scripturally stated.

steve7150
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Re: John 9 and God's purpose in the man's blindness

Post by steve7150 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:53 pm

steve7150 wrote:
Why did God pass through to Adam's descendants the curses or punishments that were attributable to Adam and Eve?


I don't think of 'original sin' as some thing God passes down to each generation. I think each generation is influenced by those who come before them and, therefore, each generation in many ways reproduces itself in the next.

Why not let them mature and then test them again


I think God does, in fact, let each person mature / tests them again.

or simply destroy them and start over, since the wages of sin is death?


I think God's preference is to work with and through problems rather than destroy and start over.









The crux of my questions is that it appears to me that God cursed mankind in certain ways and these curses affected Adam & Eve's descendants. So i wasn't referring to original sin but to the actual curses. Why pass on these curses to Adam's descendants? Also my question was re , why not let Adam and Eve mature and either test them or retest them? Also i asked about only Adam & Eve regarding destroying them only and starting again? I'm simply saying that it seems to me God could have done things differently if it was within his purposes. I don't see where God was forced to make any choices that he made other then the fact it fit his purposes. He certainly either had foreseen or if OT is true then undoubtedly figured out that Adam and Eve would most likely fail and prepared the destiny of man accordingly.

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