James 2:24, Works, and Salvation

[jriccitelli]

If God demands perfection, the only way we will have it is if it is credited to us on some basis. And if so, whence the righteousness we are credited with if not from God? (Homer)

True. God says we must be Holy as He Is Holy, no one has ever been that Holy, or even close, so unless God covers our sin we will always be unworthy of life. So we can never obtain life without God. And without life we are dead.

“I still don't think there's a single passage which clearly indicates that "sins" is used in such a way that it is tantamount to "consequences of sins" (Paidion)

‘You will eat bread, till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return’ (Genesis 3:19)
Paidion, why do you think God said Adam would return to the dust? Is it not for sin?
‘Then the LORD that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil saw continually. 6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” (Genesis 6:5)
Paidion, why do you think God said He will destroy man? Is it not for sin?

“Who can make the clean out of the unclean? No one!
5 “Since his days are determined,
The number of his months is with You;
And his limits You have set so that he cannot pass.
6 “Turn Your gaze from him that he may rest,
Until he fulfills his day like a hired man’ (Job 14)
As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years,
Or if due to strength, eighty years,
Yet their pride is but labor and sorrow;
For soon it is gone and we fly away’ (Psalm 90:10)
O LORD, God of vengeance,
God of vengeance, shine forth!
2 Rise up, O Judge of the earth,
Render recompense to the proud.
3 How long shall the wicked, O LORD,
How long shall the wicked exult?
… He has brought back their wickedness upon them
And will destroy them in their evil;
The LORD our God will destroy them’ (Psalm 94)
Paidion, why do you think God said mans days are numbered, with no hope other than returning to the dust? Is it not because of sin?
‘Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die… will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his blood will be on his own head’ (Ezek.18:13) ‘Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned’ (Romans 5:12) ‘If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness’(Romans 8:10) ‘For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive’ (1Cor.15:22) ‘If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire’ (Matt 18:8) "Each day you shall offer a bull as a sin offering for atonement, and you shall purify the altar when you make atonement for it, and you shall anoint it to consecrate it” (Exodus 29:36)

I could go through this whole chapter and explain the Law and the Sacrifices again, but you don’t even believe Moses.

But you say you believe Jesus, and yet Jesus taught us to obey Gods Law and Moses. So if you want to be Holy, I believe we should do it Gods way. You need therefore to offer a bull as a sin offering for atonement Paidion if you want to be Holy. If you don’t want to convert to Judaism and remain a Gentile, you 'still' have to offer a sacrifice for your sins. And when you sin again, how will you be forgiven if you don’t believe you had been forgiven ‘in the past’ on the cross?

[Paidion]

Paidion do you even believe in anything that could be called self-righteousness?

Yes, I do.

Would you see that as just pride or vanity in one's works?

The apostle Paul describes self-righteousness in the following verse:

...but whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith. (Php 3:7-9)

So Paul considered self-righteousness to be that which is based on the Mosaic law, which the Jews were trying to fulfill by means of self-effort. Paul wanted the righteousness that arises out of faith—faith that the death of Christ has made available the enabling grace of God (Titus 2), so that "working together with God" one could be righteous.

Here is another passage by Paul on the same subject:

Brothers , my heart’s delight and entreaty to God for them [the Jews] is salvation as the outcome. For I bear them witness to them that they have zeal for God, but it is not in keeping with correct knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness which comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the termination of the law, that every one entrusting may attain the goal of righteousness. (Rom 10:1-4)

Again Paul indicates that the approach of official Judaism of his day was to attempt to become righteous by self-effort in obeying the law of Moses. They had a lot of zeal in their attempts, but through Christ that kind of effort has been terminated. The Jewish thought that they could please God through their self-effort in keeping the law indicated a lack of correct knowledge—that through Messiah, and entrusting themselves to Him, they could through enabling grace attain the goal of righteousness.

Or do you think there is a righteousness obtained by doing good deeds combined together with the work of Christ?

Consistently doing deeds of righteousness and eschewing evil is tantamount to being righteous. And this is possible by coöperating with the work of Christ within us which is somehow made possible by His death and resurrection. Paul wrote, "Working together with Him, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain."

The bottom line is that we cannot become consistently righteous through self-effort, and God will not sovereignly make us righteous without our coöperation. But working together with Him, makes righteousness possible—an actual righteousness, not merely a positional righteousness, as the proponents of easy believism teach.

So, we can't do it alone; God won't do it alone; But together God and we WILL do it! All praise to our glorious, mighty God!

[jriccitelli]

We started this conversation with you ‘denying’ that you were teaching a works salvation, and injecting your covert ‘enabling grace’ doctrine into this thread (pg.3). And then you said:

‘Teaching a works salvation" is a very common misunderstanding by those who advocate a doctrine of easy grace which carries them to heaven regardless of whether they are righteous or unrighteous. Tell me how an unrighteous person can receive eternal life in view of what Paul says in Romans 2:7,8’ (Paidion, Dec 11, pg.3)

I guess you may disagree with Moses, but I think Jesus would agree with what Moses said:
“Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness” (Genesis 15:6)
“29 This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent… Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 “I am the bread of life. 49 “Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died… if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh… 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day… 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 “But there are some of you who do not believe…' (John 6)
I said I didn’t want to explain the sacrificial system, and that is why Jesus didn’t bother explaining it to them. They knew the requirements of the Law, because they were Jews. But do you understand what Jesus was saying here? Or, is this easy believism?

“… as the proponents of easy believism teach” (Paidion)

There is nothing easy about what Jesus taught, if it were, everyone would have believed Him! But as it were, they did not believe Him. If you don’t want to believe, or just not understand, it will not be easy, in fact it will be impossible to have eternal life:
'Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves… “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62 “What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 “But there are some of you who do not believe”(John 6)
What do you think was hard for them to believe? Right, they couldn't believe that He was the bread from Heaven, and the disciples didn’t understand how He could give His flesh to eat. Paidion, do you find it hard, or easy, to believe His Words?
I noticed some of your posts seem to say God forgives us when we repent:

‘In my opinion, genuine forgiveness is a response to repentance (having a change of heart and mind about one's actions). If the person repents and gives evidence of it, you can forgive him, and then relations between you and him are just as if he had never offended’ (Paidion, Vicarious Forgiveness, Dec 04, 2013)

Not if you don't bring a sacrifice for sins. You tend to leave out that part. But do you know our sins are not forgiven simply by repenting? This would equate to easy forgiveness-ism, don’t ya think?
‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement’ (Leviticus 17:11)
“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life” (John 6:53)
Unless you bring a blood sacrifice, you are not genuinely forgiven, you are still dead in your sins. Unless you believe He is “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” and believe He gave His blood to atone for your sins, you are believing something else. I hope you believe this.

[Paidion]

In my opinion, genuine forgiveness is a response to repentance (having a change of heart and mind about one's actions). If the person repents and gives evidence of it, you can forgive him, and then relations between you and him are just as if he had never offended’ (Paidion, Vicarious Forgiveness, Dec 04, 2013)

Not if you don't bring a sacrifice for sins. You tend to leave out that part. But do you know our sins are not forgiven simply by repenting?

So you cannot forgive a person who sins against you without bringing a sacrifice? That's the first I've ever heard that line.

Under the Old Covenant, God overlooked their sins when they offered sacrifice.

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

But Paul taught:
Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but NOW he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Under the law, their sins were not TAKEN AWAY. In order for sin to be taken away or overcome, Jesus died . He didn't die for the forgiveness of sins; He died for the FORSAKING of sins. Although αφιημι sometimes means "to forgive", it more frequently means "to leave" or "to forsake" as when Jesus left the crowds and went up into the mountains to pray. Jesus died to do away with sin, not to forgive it.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.

According to what you wrote, you only have to believe in order to get right with God. Yes, that's what I call "easy believism". Although the Greek word πιστευω can sometimes mean "to believe" it also means "to entrust oneself". For example, consider John 2:23,24

Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people. ESV

The same word πιστευω is used in both verses, but I know of NO translation which renders it as "believe" in verse 24.
What do YOU think those people who "believed in his name" actually did? Did they simply say to Him, "I believe in you"?
I say that what they did was entrust themselves to Him. They became His disciples. They left their former life, and submitted to Him.

The two verses are in contrast. Many entrusted themselves to Jesus, but Jesus did not entrust Himself to them.

You say repentance is not enough. But what did John the Baptizer, Jesus, Peter and Paul teach as the way into the Kingdom of God?

The Gospel According to John the Baptizer
According to John the Baptizer, there were two requirements necessary to become a member of the Kingdom:
1.Repent
2. Be baptized. The end or purpose of baptism was the affirmation of one’s decision, the entrance into the door of salvation, and the beginning of the process of sending sin out of one’s life, and thus the bearing of fruit that is worthy of repentance.

The Gospel According to Jesus
Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
John 4:1-3 Now when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), he left Judea and departed again to Galilee.

Jesus proclaimed the same requirements! Repent and be baptized.

The Gospel According to Peter
After Peter had addressed the men of Judea, showing that God had raised Jesus from the death, and that they had crucified Him, the following exchange took place:

Acts 2:36-39
“... Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the restof the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the sending away of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him."

What were Peter’s requirements to appropriate the benefits of the Gospel? Repent and be baptized! The only difference was that now that Jesus had been raised, the gift of His Spirit was given.

Now some claim that John the baptizer and Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom, but that the apostle Paul opened the new order of the Church by preaching the gospel of grace. C.I. Scofield, in his notes on Matthew 5:5 went so far as to affirm

“…the Sermon on the Mount in its primary application gives neither the privilege nor the duty of the Church.” ---- Scofield Reference Bible, 1917 edition.

In other words, it is neither the duty nor even the privilege of the Christian to obey the laws of Christ expressed in those chapters.

Scofield taught that Christ’s teachings in the “Sermon on the Mount” were the laws of the kingdom offered to the Jews, but that since the Jews rejected the kingdom it was to be postponed. Such teachers declare that now that we are under grace, we should listen to Paul, for the words of Christ no longer apply to us who live in the age of grace. But as Paul made abundantly clear, there is only one gospel. That one gospel is the gospel of the Kingdom and Paul himself preached it!

The Gospel According to Paul

Acts 28:30,31 And he lived there two whole years at his own expense, and welcomed all who came to him, preaching the kingdom of God and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ quite openly and unhindered.

But did Paul declare the necessity of repentance, as did John the Baptizer, Jesus, and Peter? Or did he teach that all that is necessary is to believe in the atoning work of Christ? In recounting to King Agrippa, his experience with Jesus on the road to Damascus, he concluded by saying,

Acts 26:19,20 "Wherefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those at Damascus, then at Jerusalem and throughout all the country of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God and perform deeds worthy of their repentance.

Does Paul’s gospel not resemble that proclaimed by John the baptizer? Yes, Paul preached repentance, and doing deeds worthy of repentance. But did Paul proclaim the necessity of baptism? We read:

Acts 18: 8 ...many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

It was after they heard Paul that they were baptized. The necessity of baptism must have been implicit or explicit in Paul’s message. Otherwise, why would they get baptized? So Paul’s gospel not only “resembled” that of John the Baptizer; it was identical! But is baptism really necessary in order to get right with God? Let’s look at the life of Paul himself. When were his sins washed away? Was it on the road to Damascus when Jesus spoke to him, and he submitted? That experience certainly turned him around. He was blinded, and was then ready to do what the Lord Jesus told him to do. But later, it was Ananias who counseled him to be baptized. From Paul’s own account of the matter, Ananias said:

Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name..

So it was not when Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus, but at his baptism that Paul had his sins washed away.

What About John 3:16 and Acts 16:29-31...?

Acts 16:29-31 And he (the Philippian jailer) called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and brought them out and said, “Men, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Do these passages contradict the requirements Jesus and Peter gave for becoming right with God? Do they require something less to be saved? So often today, we hear that all you have to do to get right with God is “accept Christ as your personal saviour”. That’s a phrase we don’t find in any New Testament or early Christian writing. Or all you have to do is pray “God be merciful to me a sinner”, or “I realize I’m a sinner, Jesus, and that you died to save me. I hereby accept your finished work to make me fit for heaven.” Or some other prayer.

I recall a woman from my local area who affirmed that she would not become a Christian, because she just didn’t want to have to come to the front of a church and weep and cry. Some time later, she told me that she found out from her Christian friend that a person doesn’t have to come forward, weeping and crying. “All you have to do,” she explained, “is say a little prayer, and you’ll be a Christian.” That’s the way the woman understood the “gospel” which was presented to her. One wonders how many people have “said the little prayer” and remained unchanged, but are under the delusion that they are now “saved”, that they can go on living their lives as usual, but with the expectation that they’ll go to heaven when they die, or when they are raised again to life.

So, it is said that all we have to do is believe in Jesus. However, the whole crux of the matter lies in that little word Πιστευω (pisteuō) which has been translated “believe”. Indeed, the word does mean “believe” in many contexts. But, as I said earlier in this post, another meaning is given in John’s account of Jesus’ life:

John 2:23-25 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name. But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. He did not need man’s testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.

Is not “entrust” also the way the word is used in John 3:16 and Acts 16:29-31? If we entrust ourselves to Jesus, this includes repentance and baptism. “For God so loved the world … that whoever should entrust himself to Him would have lasting life.”

[jriccitelli]

So you cannot forgive a person who sins against you without bringing a sacrifice? That's the first I've ever heard that line’ (Paidion)

‘Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering; 5 but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell’ (Genesis 4)
God made the Law, not me. Are we more forgiving than God? Besides who can forgive sins but God? I really don’t know why a bible reader would say this? Your easy-forgiveism theory is far far from scriptures consistent precedent of blood sacrifices for sin. How many books can you name that the beginning, middle and 70% of the subject matter has no relevance or foundation to the rest of the book?

Under the Old Covenant, God overlooked their sins when they offered sacrifice’ (Paidion)

Sin is 'why' they offered sacrifices, so yes the sacrifices covered and atoned for sin. Not directly, but it was because they believed, and had faith in God, that the sacrifices appeased God and keep them in relationship with God.

Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but NOW he commands all people everywhere to repent. (Paidion)

Acts 17? Your kidding right, this is in Athens:
So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present. 18 And also some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers were conversing with him… Men of Athens… what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you… we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent’ (like in Romans, God overlooked the Gentiles sin, not His own people)

Under the law, their sins were not TAKEN AWAY (Paidion)

The sacrifice does not take away sin, but ‘faith’ that it does, took away their sin. Man needed to have an ‘assurance’ of forgiveness. How else could you be ‘sure’ God had forgiven your sin? God set up the system to give them peace about it. But it had to be done Gods way, and it demanded faith in the system of atonement:
"Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to bear away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the LORD” (Leviticus 10:17)
You say if you repent your sin is forgiven, on what basis? Forgiving someone does not take away sins either, and it does not make a person any less a sinner. If forgiving has no basis it is baseless. The person forgiving has to be a good person, if one sinner forgives another, all you create is an endless cycle of sinners. God knows us better than that, your theology is based on the idea that man is good, and that he can eventually, if forgiven often enough will become less a sinner. If the president of the Country, or Gandhi, or the nicest person you know, just keeps forgiving you every time you sin, all that really does is reduce forgiveness to meaningless. That might work in a world of righteous people, but Jesus didn’t come for the righteous (there are none). You can try that system in the next world, but God knows that wouldn’t work in this world. On what basis or reason would you expect to get a room full of sinners to just start forgiving one another? Why should they forgive? And why wouldn’t they be doing so already?
'If You, LORD, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand? 4 But there is forgiveness with You, That You may be feared. 5 I wait for the LORD, my soul does wait, And in His word do I hope” (Psalm 130:4)

Jesus died to do away with sin, not to forgive it’ (Paidion)

‘He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins’ (Matt 26:28)
‘Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, "This is the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words" (Exodus 24:8)
‘In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace’ (Eph 1:7)
‘He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach’ (Col 1:22)

‘According to what you wrote, you only have to believe in order to get right with God. Yes, that's what I call "easy believism" (Paidion)

‘Many entrusted themselves to Jesus, but Jesus did not entrust Himself to them’ Correct, God knows the heart, like it said in John “But there are some of you who do not believe”. Again, your supposing all repentance is genuine, your salvation could be labeled easy-repentism. No one is fooling God, this is like saying easy-truthism, easy-faithism, easy-loveism; truth and love are not irrelevant because some don’t have genuine love.

‘I say that what they did was entrust themselves to Him. They became His disciples’ (Paidion)

Are you saying we don’t need to believe and have faith? I don’t get your wiggling here, entrust means to believe, have faith, pisteuo. ‘So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine’ (John 8:31). Being a disciple didn’t confirm their loyalty and authenticity, being a ‘Believer’ is what defined them.

'You say repentance is not enough. But what did John the Baptizer, Jesus, Peter and Paul teach as the way into the Kingdom of God? (Paidion)

What are you now? A Baptist? True, I said it was not enough: “BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY… MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT” (Mark 1) We aren’t forgiven because were baptized, or are you now saying its baptism that saves us? Repentance ‘prepares the way’. If we don’t admit and acknowledge our sins, we aren’t admitting we need forgiveness. Your salvation method at this point seems to be the: “Repent and be baptized” (Paidion)

‘Indeed, the word does mean “believe” in many contexts. But, as I said earlier in this post, another meaning is given in John’s account of Jesus’ life’ (Paidion)

It seems you are the one giving Pisteuo a different meaning. I am not sure why you are arguing against belief and faith.
Confess - Repent - Believe. You do all three, and but you can’t leave one out.

“that whoever should entrust himself to Him would have lasting life” (Paidion)

That's the first I've ever heard that version, why would you read it like that? Seems pretty clear in the Greek, and you added an extra pronoun. Why would you attempt to argue the meaning of believe to make your point? Are you trying to make ‘belief’ a complex concept in order to prove that believing is easy-believism? I believe it is hard to believe what your saying, so yes, you can make it difficult, but Jesus never said it would be complicated, He said some ‘refused’ to believe.

[Paidion]

.

The Call of Christ

I came to Jesus oh so long ago,
The Jesus that the tracts portray;
Accepted Him into my heart and soul,
But then I heard the Saviour say:

“Take up your cross and follow me.”
I hear my blessed Saviour call.
How can I make a lesser sacrifice
When Jesus gave His all!

They never said I had to count the cost;
By grace I’d get to heaven some day;
For once you’re saved, you never can be lost.
But then I heard the Saviour say:

“Take up your cross and follow me.”
I hear my blessed Saviour call.
How can I make a lesser sacrifice
When Jesus gave His all!

I thought it didn’t matter how I lived,
For all my sin the Lord did pay.
No matter what I did, I’d get to heaven,
But then I heard the Saviour say:

“Take up your cross and follow me.”
I hear my blessed Saviour call.
How can I make a lesser sacrifice
When Jesus gave His all!

I lived for self; I didn’t live for Christ;
I didn’t fear, for come what may
My sin was hid; God saw Christ’s righteousness.
But then I heard the Saviour say:

“Take up your cross and follow me.”
I hear my blessed Saviour call.
How can I make a lesser sacrifice
When Jesus gave His all!

And then I knew I must submit to Him
And live for Christ from day to day.
I will be in His likeness when He comes.
And still I hear my Saviour say:

“Take up your cross and follow me.”
I hear my blessed Saviour call.
How can I make a lesser sacrifice
When Jesus gave His all!

[Paidion]

Here is Jack Holcomb singing the 1922 version of "Take up thy cross and follow me."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLuqmcThE8Q

[jriccitelli]

'For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them'
I already said that if someone tells you that 'your going to receive a unicorn in heaven', it may be true, but that is not the content of the Gospel, nor the meaning of the Cross: Jesus died for your sins, and was raised on the third day, if that is all you know it may be enough, but were told to make converts, not quips. how much someone takes what they know to heart is their own decision, and there desire to seek God, know him and fear Him depends on your own heart. It is not a fault of the message.

Still, without being forgiven you are still unforgiven. There is no forgiveness of sin without blood sacrifice. You can't crucify yourself, it won't do you any good, it doesn't wash away your sins, and picking up the cross meant we die 'with him'.

[Paidion]

You can't crucify yourself, it won't do you any good.

You can live the crucified life.

You can't crucify yourself, it won't do you any good.

You'll have to argue with Jesus about that. He said:

And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. (Matt 10:38)
Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. (Matt 16:24)
And he called to him the crowd with his disciples and said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. (Mark 8:34)


The apostle Paul wrote:

We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Rom 6:6-12 ESV)

Paul is not saying that when He was crucified, we (who were not even born then) were crucified with Christ in the first century. He is saying tht we must be crucified with Him NOW, so that the body of sin might be rendered ineffective. This happens NOW during our lifetimes. Salvation from sin is a life-long process. Those who trust in the finished work of Christ to save them from hell, but go no further, are not being saved from sin. They are continuing in sin. We must die to self and be made alive to righteousness.

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed [of your sin-sickness]. (1Pet 2:24)

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