We are saved from WHAT?

[jriccitelli]

Yet Paidion your view continues to seem to deny the need for our confession, death and acknowledgment that within and of ourselves we cannot please God, nor overcome sin. In order to be born again we must first die. And If you believe ‘you must be born again’ and then ‘raised with Christ’ it is only then that ‘He’ can produce His works in us. And of course having our will changed by Him (repentance) so that we want to work the works, then we can agree. But you also have a different dichotomy between the body and the soul, so I don’t know how you could even identify with the born again principle described by Jesus (?). I hope this is just semantics, I hope.

(Jeremiah, I had to add some lines to my previous post at the bottom of pg. 11, and I will note them below)

John 6:31 "it is written "He gave them bread out of heaven to eat" Jesus then goes on for the next 30 verses explaining how He is the bread that has come down from heaven, and by believing His Words we have Life eternal and Communion with God. Both these realities are expressed and combined by the one metaphoric idea of eating His Words and Sharing in the Communion supper, demonstrating that we both believe and accept Him as our passover meal and Lamb.

So, having said that, verse 6:63 sums up all that Jesus and all that Scripture has been telling us from The Beginning;
“It is the Spirit who gives life” (God creates Life)
“… the flesh profits nothing” (Man (flesh) does not create life and is unprofitable)
“ The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life” (The Word is the Spirit, the Word and the Spirit create Life (not the flesh). Do you believe this?

[Paidion]

Yet Paidion your view continues to seem to deny the need for our confession, death and acknowledgment that within and of ourselves we cannot please God, nor overcome sin. In order to be born again we must first die. And If you believe ‘you must be born again’ and then ‘raised with Christ’ it is only then that ‘He’ can produce His works in us. And of course having our will changed by Him (repentance) so that we want to work the works, then we can agree.

.

I have frequently stated that it it difficult to work righteousness by self-effort, and probably impossible, through self-effort to maintain righteousness and eschew evil in a consistent way over a long period of time. I have indicated that this IS possible to do so, by the enabling grace of God made available by the sacrificial death of Christ. I have stated that God does not enable us unilaterally, but that we must coöperate with His enabling grace, or else we have "received the grace of God in vain" as the apostle Paul put it. In other words, if we simply "receive God's grace by faith" without coöperating with God's desire to render us righteous, then any grace of God's part proves useless since He can't effect it without our coöperation. "Working together with Him" as Paul put it, is the key to overcoming. If we think it unnecessary to become righteous—content with the thought that we will escape hell because Jesus "died in our place", we are in for a rude awakening some day. God is not interested primarily in saving us from hell. He is interested in producing righteous persons, and He will not force righteousness on us. His way is not to force us but to woo us. We cannot become righteous by self-effort. But neither can we become righteous if we make no effort. I think the most serious deception today is the teaching that God doesn't require righteousness. If that were true, then why would He send anyone to hell at all? I think that God's requirement for righteousness is the very reason He sends them there! If they will not submit to His authority here on earth, then God will create conditions in which they WILL FREELY SUBMIT, become saved from their own sinful natures, and become righteous persons.

Working together with Him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain. (2 Corinthians 6:1)

[dseusy]

Paidion,

I agree with you that we must become righteous. God does require righteousness and I agree with you that He doesn't force it upon us. However, isn't it possible to "receive God's grace by faith" while "cooperating with God's desire to render us righteous"? How does He render us? If He did it by changing the nature of the flesh, He would have to remove Galatians 5:17 from the Bible.

I believe we become a new creation... a born again creation- which is our life hidden in Christ, because outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.

In order to be righteous we must not sin. Yet 1 John 1:8 states that if we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us. As God's powerful Word divides that what is of the flesh from that which is spiritual, we can acknowledge our sin and still have hope (Romans 7).

[jriccitelli]

… God will create conditions in which they WILL FREELY SUBMIT (Paidion)

Are you saying at the end of this quote, that God created hell as a place in which they WILL FREELY SUBMIT??

[steve7150]

Are you saying at the end of this quote, that God created hell as a place in which they WILL FREELY SUBMIT??

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jriccitelli





It's not the pagan word "hell", it's the lake of fire and we don't really know what the nature of this fire is.

[Paidion]

However, isn't it possible to "receive God's grace by faith" while "cooperating with God's desire to render us righteous"?

YES! It's not only possible but it's necessary.This is the way we appropriate God's enabling grace, through faith in the Son of God who loved us and gave Himself for us to deliver us from sin. Our regeneration was the first step, and continuing in faith in the efficacy of Christ's death to deliver us from sin, is the way to ongoing deliverance.

Notice I wrote:

if we simply "receive God's grace by faith" without coöperating with God's desire to render us righteous, then any grace of God's part proves useless since He can't effect it without our coöperation.

I had in mind those who think they can be saved from hell simply by "receiving God's grace by faith" (by which they mean receiving "the free gift of salvation" from hell without relating this grace at all to living righteously).

[jriccitelli]

Paidion, you have been expressing your belief that everyone in hell will be saved and eventually get out of hell, yet wouldn't a person in hell get out “without relating this grace at all to living righteously”?? (Since you can’t live righteously in hell)
Is there an ‘ongoing deliverance’ after being released from hell (according to your salvation)?
Do you not see you are arguing with your own theology?

Also Dseusy, note that Paidion has a different definition of ‘enabling grace’ than what we may think.
Paidion’s enabling grace seems to take on a life of its own. I have asked if you could clarify this Paidion.
I believe to receive ‘God's grace by faith’, is to accept Christ’s ‘atonement’ for our sins.
1. Upon that confession God gives us His Holy Spirit, thus it is Gods Spirit that helps us and enables us.
2. This is synonymous with being born again from above, and dying to ourselves.
3. It is never our righteousness, it is Christ’s righteousness that makes us righteous.
Do you agree with those three statements Paidion?

7150, I prefer LOF, but punishment, destruction and death can all be summed up in with the word hell.
We are sure of the nature of the ‘punishment’ – fire – pretty much sums it up. Again: God defines refiners fire, by calling it refiners fire. The verse in Zech. 13 are the saved people who go through a fiery ordeal, this is just an analogy of their suffering, just as the NT believers own suffering with Christ, which God promises to believers. This has nothing at all to do with the judgments of fire for the unbelievers. Gold is already gold before it goes through the furnace, and you don’t throw’ gold into a furnace you gently place it there, most likely in a crucible. Being burned or thrown into a furnace is not what happens to gold.

[Paidion]

Are you saying at the end of this quote, that God created hell as a place in which they WILL FREELY SUBMIT??

Yes

Paidion, you have been expressing your belief that everyone in hell will be saved and eventually get out of hell, yet wouldn't a person in hell get out “without relating this grace at all to living righteously”?

No. No person will get out of hell without realizing his wrong doing and seeing the need to live righteously. He will not get out merely by "trusting in the finished work of Christ." Deliverance from sin as well as its consequences has the same requirements in hell as here on earth—namely, submission to Christ, regeneration, and discipleship.

(Since you can’t live righteously in hell)

Why not? Why is it impossible to live righteously while in hell? Would you be FORCED to go on sinning after having been delivered from sin by Christ? I don't think so, albeit some people seem to think you are forced to go on sinning after your conversion even while you are here on earth.

Is there an ‘ongoing deliverance’ after being released from hell ?

Perhaps so, if the person's salvation from sin has not been fully completed after his release. Wouldn't this be the case even with a disciple of Christ? Suppose a Christian dies without repenting and being delivered from some of his sin. Can he carry that into the next life and go on living forever with it? Or will he have to be delivered from it. It won't do to say that it will be "covered" by the blood of Christ and no longer remembered since he will then have been forgiven for all of his sin. If his character is such that he still has a propensity to commit those sins, he is not ready to enjoy everlasting life. Or do you think God will FORCE him to cease committing sin or thinking about committing sin in heaven? I don't think so. God seldom if ever interferes with man's free will. Yes, there may be a sort of "purgatory", a means of purging each person from sin. Since God's purpose is that man may be ACTUALLY righteous and not merely POSITIONALLY righteous, He will do what it takes in order that man may freely choose to coöperate with His divine enabling grace, whether here on earth or in the next life.

On the other hand, it may be that when we see Christ, and His magnificance, there may be an instant work of grace in us together with our immediate coöperation so that we will be instantly delivered and be complete in Christ. (I am inclined rather to this view).

I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

And the same may apply when people are released from hell and behold the Son of God.

Do you not see you are arguing with your own theology?

No. I don't see that. Can you enlighten me?

I believe to receive ‘God's grace by faith’, is to accept Christ’s ‘atonement’ for our sins.
1. Upon that confession God gives us His Holy Spirit, thus it is Gods Spirit that helps us and enables us.
2. This is synonymous with being born again from above, and dying to ourselves.
3. It is never our righteousness, it is Christ’s righteousness that makes us righteous.
Do you agree with those three statements Paidion?

I don't agree with the basis of salvation which you present. It is not "Accepting Christ's atonement for our sin". Rather it is our submitting to His authority in our lives and becoming His disciples. This is clinched by baptism. It it then that we are regenerated. "Dying to sin" or salvation from sin is not synonymous to that initial step. Rather it is a process after that initial step until we are fully "conformed to the image of Christ" (Rom 8:29).

I do agree that it is "never our righteousness," if you mean that it is not the righteousness comes about by self-effort. But it IS our righteousness in the sense that we become rightous by coöperating with the enabling grace of God.

Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. (2 Corinthians 6:1)

What do you mean when you say, "It is Christ’s righteousness that makes us righteous"? Do you mean that His righteousness is forced on us so that we become righteous persons? Or do you mean merely that we are counted AS IF we were righteous because of Christ's righteousness? I cannot see the former since God never forces His will on us, rendering us righteous apart from our coöperation. Nor can I see the latter since being counted righteous, or God looking at us AS IF we were righteous (when we actually are not) is a farce. Do you really think He would willingly allow Himself to be blinded to our sin so that He can let us into heaven? Would he be content with this, even though we continued to have sinful inclinations which might manifest themselves in heaven? SURELY NOT! God is not interested in a pretending righteousness but in a REAL righteousness. The process of salvation will be complete in that day; we will be fully delivered from it by the enabling grace of God. We will have been fully conformed to the image of Christ. We will have no inclination whatever to sin. This is what God wants! Only then can we be fully in union with Him!

[jriccitelli]

Paidion, thanks for the quick response to most everything asked, I am rushed but I could only think of the two things that didn’t seem you answered, that is:
Do you believe you must be born again? (What does that mean to you?)
Do you believe God fills you with His Spirit when you, um, lets say ‘believe’, or ‘accept Him’.
(What does filled with His Spirit it mean to you?)

[Paidion]

I responded quickly to you, JR, because true salvation is a most important and crucial issue, and I wanted to bear witness to the real thing.

Do you believe you must be born again? (What does that mean to you?)

I know you had two questions, but this one is going to take some explaining, and so I will address the second at a later time.

First, the Greek verb "γενναω" (gennaō) does not mean "to bear" or "to give birth to". If this were the meaning, then Matthew 1:2 would read:

Abraham gave birth to Isaac, Isaac gave birth to Jacob, and Jacob gave birth to Judah and his brothers.

There is another Greek word "τικτω" (tiktō) for "to bear" or "to give birth to". It is found in John 16:21, Gal 4:27, Heb 6:7, and James 1:15.

The English word "to generate" is derived from the Greek word "γενναω" (gennaō), and this English word is the primary meaning of "γενναω" (gennaō). It might also be translated as "to produce" or the older English word "to beget" (which also means "to produce").

Now I do not say that "γενναω" (gennaō) is NEVER used in the sense of giving birth, but it is rare. There is ONE instance in the New Testament in which the word clearly seems to be used concerning birth:

Now Elizabeth’s full time came for her to be delivered, and she brought forth ("γενναω") a son. (Luke 1:57)

When Jesus said to Nicodemus, "You must be generated again," the gospel writer used the word "γενναω" not "τικτω". That is why I prefer to say that a person is "re-generated" rather than "born again." Now you may wonder why I have stressed that the word usually means "generate" or "produce". It is because I believe salvation to be a process, and regeneration is only the BEGINNING of the process. When one has been re-generated, he has entered only the door of salvation.

When a child is generated or conceived it is but a single zygote consisting of an egg and a sperm cell. The zygote must receive nourishment. Then it grows throughout a nine-month period into a fully developed baby and is born. So it is that when one re-generated or "produced again", he is, in the beginning, quite unlike the fully developed spiritual person which God will bring to completion as the person works together with God to become mature. Then the time will come when he will be born into the resurrection. That is the moment when he will be born again.

For whom He foreknew, He also pre-appointed to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Romans 8:29)

The Greek word for "firstborn" is πρωτοτοκος (prōtotokos). This word is derived from "τικτω" and so it indeed mean "first BORN". At the resurrection our time in the "womb" of this present world will be complete, and we will be born into resurrection life, even as Jesus was. God raised Jesus from the dead. He was the firstborn of the resurrection, the first person to receive a true resurrection, the firstborn of many brethren (whom He will raise from the dead when He returns.)