What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

[psimmond]

dwilkins, I have to agree with Brenden that this doesn't appear to be talking about Israel. Chapter 1:5-6 seems to include the hearers of this letter with "all the nations. The Greek work "ethnos" which is translated "nations" is often used to refer to Gentiles or heathens. Verse 13 also seems to lump them together with the rest of the Gentiles. Finally, the list of depravities doesn't seem to fit with what the Bible tells us about Israel.

So putting together the above responses: I'm now considering a new picture of humanity:
We come into this world with a bias or tendency to sin as a result of Adam's sin; this is the falleness we have inherited. We are not, however, spiritually blind except in the sense that the sinful lifestyles of our forefathers can cause us to be raised in a manner that makes it almost impossible to recognize the truth as the truth. (Sort of the reverse to the proverb-"train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.") But we can become spiritually blind by knowing and suppressing the truth that God has revealed to us (prevenient grace). And there may come a point in a person's life where God stops using his providence to influence an individual (or group of people) for good and instead turns them over to the cravings of their darkened hearts and minds.

This seems to fit better with the whole of scripture than the scenario I started this thread with:

I've been taught from the time I was little that Adam and Eve experienced spiritual death at the moment they ate from the fruit. And ever since then every human has been born into this world spiritually dead. (It seems this might be synonymous with spiritual blindness as well.) It seems the teaching is that this spiritual death separates us from God and makes it impossible for us to understand spiritual matters. It also strips us of any ability or desire to reconnect to God. It isn't until God's prevenient grace draws us that our spiritual blinders are removed and we can believe the truth of the gospel.

[Singalphile]

The exact phrase - "spiritual death" (or the equivalent) - is not found in the Bible, unless I've just overlooked it. Romans 8:1-25 perhaps comes closest to defining the concept (Romans 8:6). Ephesians 2 and Col 2-3 also describe a person who is dead in trespasses and sin.

In all of these passages, the two groups of people are those who ...

A. Walk according to the flesh, have minds set on the things of the flesh, are hostile towards God, do not subject themselves to the law of God, do not and cannot please God in the flesh, do not have the spirit of God, walk according to the course of this world, walk according to the prince of the power of the air, live in the lusts of the flesh, indulge the desires of the flesh and of the mind, are by nature children of wrath, and must die.

B. Walk according to the Spirit, have minds set on the things of the Spirit, have the spirit of God dwelling in them, have a body that is dead because of sin yet a spirit that is is alive because of righteousness, put to death the deeds of the body, are led by the Spirit of God, have a circumcision made without hands in the removal of the body of the flesh, are dead to immorality, and will live.

So people in group A - a person whose mind is set on the flesh - could be described as "spiritually dead", though that phrase seems to just add more confusion than is necessary. (Death" and "life" are used metaphorically in many different ways in the NT, as I'm sure you know.)

I would say that the use of life and death language is mostly pointing to the end results. The mind set on the flesh results in death, whereas the mind set on the Spirit results in life and peace. As mattrose noted, "sometimes 'dead in sin' means that we were as good as dead."
As Romans 8:13 says, "if you are living according to the flesh, you [a]must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live." I also think of the Didache, which starts by saying, "There are two ways, one of life and one of death."

I can't assume that Adam and Eve were ever "spiritually dead" as described above. When they ate the fruit, they had their minds on fleshly things apparently (to my mind, the fruit may symbolize fleshly things), but that episode might have been a mere lapse.

I think that everyone is naturally inclined to live according to the flesh. Babies obviously naturally do. Any person can refrain from wicked fleshly lusts for a time, which is good, and yet all do (or will) sin.

I'm not sure if "spiritual blindness" is a Biblical phrase either. That strikes me as a different matter. A person might know the truth (e.g., that God exists and rewards those who seek Him, Heb 11:6) but might still choose to ignore that and indulge the flesh.

[dwilkins]

Hi Doug,

You wrote:

This passage is not aimed at Gentiles and is not a description of general revelation. It's a description of Israel from the time of the Exodus forward.

I am curious on what you base this? I have yet to see this in any commentary and don't personally ascertain that from the text when I read it. How readest thou?

Regards, Brenden.

The first time I got to thinking about this was while reading Andrew Perriman's book on Romans. He didn't go as far with it as I eventually did, but he broke the seal on the concept for me. To put it in context, the book is basically about the eschatological conversion of the people of God from Israelites only to a combined group of Jews and Gentiles based on faith like Abraham had. The Jews assumed (as is true in Galatians and other passages) that they were justified by their membership in that nation. Paul is making the point that God doesn't care if you're in the nation (he doesn't show partiality). He only cares about whether you have faith like Abraham had. With that background, I'll quote the discourse, bold some important elements, and then make some points below:

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Rom 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.
Rom 2:2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things.
Rom 2:3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
Rom 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
Rom 2:10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
Rom 2:11 For God shows no partiality.


1. The point of the discourse is that God will save everyone by faith, the Jew first but also the Gentile. He shows no partiality. These two phrases form book ends to the logic of the discourse. The discourse isn't about whether you can learn that there is a God by staring and the stars (or, general revelation).
2. The people in view at some point knew God, which can be said of no one other than the justified descendants of Adam and the Israelites starting at Sinai. This cannot apply to the Gentiles generally.
3. They had been shown the invisible attributes and power of God. This was only done in the OT through the design of the Tabernacle per Hebrews. This cannot apply to the Gentiles generally.
4. They knew specifically that the death penalty was the sentence for the sins they committed. This only exists in scripture for one group of people, which is Israel under the Mosaic Law. This cannot apply to the Gentiles generally.
5. Creation imagery, basing itself on the actual creation, is occasionally associated with the creation of the Israelite nation. New Creation imagery is related to recreation of the nation under the New Covenant (see Isaiah 51:15 ff). Therefore, it is quite possible that the knowledge of God that existed since creation is actually a reference to creation of the nation, not the physical universe.
6. They had started out correctly but were given over to lust, which hardened their hearts. This tracks very cleanly with the narrative of Israel seen in Hebrews 3. This cannot apply to the Gentiles generally.
7. The wrath of God in the first century was aimed at those who suppressed the truth. Those who suppressed the truth in the first century were almost exclusively the Jews. This cannot apply to the Gentiles generally.
8. People who judge improperly in many places in the NT, and certainly in this passage, are using the Mosaic Law to judge other people when they themselves can't follow it. This cannot apply to the Gentiles generally.
9. The judgment that was on the horizon was “about to be” according to Acts 24:24 ff.

Accountability for the Gentiles is handled through their conscience in Romans 2. So, they are liable for the bad acts that they've committed that violate their conscience. But, the discourse starting in Romans 1 is not a direct reference to their accountability under general revelation.

Doug

[Homer]

Doug,

You wrote:

2. The people in view at some point knew God, which can be said of no one other than the justified descendants of Adam and the Israelites starting at Sinai. This cannot apply to the Gentiles generally.

But wouldn't it work as well to see this in a collective sense as representative of a class of people?

[robbyyoung]

Good Job Doug,

Dave Curtis gives a wonderful teaching concerning "The Gentiles" that I would encourage everyone to view.

1. http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transc ... _video.php
2. http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transc ... _video.php

God Bless!

[dwilkins]

Doug,

You wrote:

2. The people in view at some point knew God, which can be said of no one other than the justified descendants of Adam and the Israelites starting at Sinai. This cannot apply to the Gentiles generally.

But wouldn't it work as well to see this in a collective sense as representative of a class of people?

I think it is a class of people. But, it's a class of people who used to have a proper, functional relationship with God and then this ended through rebellion. I don't think that the Gentiles are ever described this way. You might say that this includes everyone descendant from Adam, but none of the rest of the elements of this passage indicate this. All of the elements include a corporate group who had a relationship with full explanation of who God was and the penalty of the specific sins listed. This can only be the Israelites after Sinai.

Doug

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[mattrose]

A lot of this reminds of the argument whether Calvinist's "total depravity" is really total or not.

I think 'total depravity' just means that every aspect of our selves is corrupted by the fall, not that any 1 aspect (or all of them) is totally corrupt. I think even good calvinists agree on that point.

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[psimmond]

I really appreciate all of you chiming in on this post! I think this is just a piece of Augustine's view of original sin and Calvin's total depravity that crept into my Arminian upbringing and never quite fit.