Romans 3 and Christ's Sacrifice

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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Homer
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Romans 3 and Christ's Sacrifice

Post by Homer » Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:28 pm

The following text seems to be very strong support for substitutionary atonement:

Romans 3:21-26 (NASB)

21. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22. even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24. being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25. whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26. for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

dizerner

Re: Romans 3 and Christ's Sacrifice

Post by dizerner » Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:51 pm

also
Who loved me, and gave himself for me.
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God

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Paidion
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Re: Romans 3 and Christ's Sacrifice

Post by Paidion » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:52 pm

Homer wrote:The following text seems to be very strong support for substitutionary atonement:

Romans 3:21-26 (NASB)

21. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22. even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24. being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25. whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26. for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
It is very strong support only for those who already believe in substitutionary atonement. One who has not been conditioned to accept that view, would not be convinced of it from this text unless he understood the words as those do who believe in penal substitution.

Let's begin with verse 21. How has the righteousness of God been manifested apart from the law? It is through Jesus' death and resurrection—not the law, that we are able to be saved from actual sin, not merely from the consequences of sin. Exactly what IS that righteousness of God? Verse 22 says that righteousness of God becomes available to those who "believe" (that is entrust themselves to Christ). This is an actual righteousness which the believer comes to possess through the enabling grace of God (see Titus 2), and not an imposed righteousness so that when God looks at us He does not see our sin but Christ's righteousness. Rather we BECOME the righteousness of God (2 Cor 5:21). For all need to be saved from sin and become righteous, for "All have sinned" verse 23. Verse 24 "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus." Most of us have been conditioned to think that to be justified is to be "counted righteous, just as if I'd never sinned". However the word "δικαιουμενοι" in the New Testament often means "rendered righteous". Sinners can be rendered righteous by the enabling grace made available through Christ's sacrifice and being redeemed from the sinful life. By coöperating with this enabling grace we can be delivered from sin. We could never be delivered through self-effort alone. So this provision is God's gift to us.

In verse 25, "ιλαστηριον" is incorrectly translated as "propitiation." To propitiate God would be to do something to gain His favour. That's what people in the heathen religions do. They try to propitiate their gods so that their gods will not punish them. That is not what the sacrifice of Christ is about. The verbal form of this Greek word is is "ιλασκομαι", the word found in Luke 18:13 in the appeal "God be merciful, to me, a sinner." Thus "ιλαστηριον" should be translated as "a means of mercy." (Indeed, this is the very word for "mercy seat" in Heb 9:5). And what a mercy that is, for God to provide a means of our becoming righteous! This is indeed a demonstration of God's righteousness, a righteousness that can be imparted to us with our coöperation! For in God's forbearance, He passed over sins that were formerly committed before Christ made this provision for sin. Paul also said something similar, as recorded in Acts 17:30, "Truly, those times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent." So God has demonstrated His righteousness which He provides for those who have entrust themselves to Jesus, for God Himself is righteous, and renders righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: Romans 3 and Christ's Sacrifice

Post by dizerner » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:13 pm

To be fair homer, your verse seems more about faith versus works justification, not substitution. "A propitiation in His blood" obviously supports penal atonement, but that wasn't even your topic.

Consider again my verses in regards to the concept of substitution. For example, I am going to smash an apple because I am mad at an apple. Instead I "substitute" an orange for the apple, and smash the orange. We also have to consider effects. In a basketball team one player is flagging; so I "substitute" another fresh player with the result that the team does better. Or say I need to bake a cake with no flour. I can "substitute" another ingredient, and still get a cake. The whole idea is "one thing in place of another." Another good verse is the scapegoats.

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Paidion
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Re: Romans 3 and Christ's Sacrifice

Post by Paidion » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:06 pm

Penal substitution. Wow! God is angry at us because of our sins, but He can be "satisfied" by taking out His anger on His innocent Son, by seeing His Son tortured to death by crucifixion? Thus we get off scott free! And in acting in this way, God is JUST? God is FAIR?

Would you consider it just and fair for a human father who is angry with his son Bill for beating up his little sister, to gain satisfaction by whipping his innocent son, Joe, instead of Bill, and letting Bill go his way without receiving any correction whatever? All the people I know would consider this supremely UNJUST. Yet millions believe that God does exactly that by beating up His own beloved Son to a pulp, and thereby letting us off the hook.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: Romans 3 and Christ's Sacrifice

Post by dizerner » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:47 pm

Paidion wrote:Penal substitution. Wow! God is angry at us because of our sins, but He can be "satisfied" by taking out His anger on His innocent Son, by seeing His Son tortured to death by crucifixion? Thus we get off scott free! And in acting in this way, God is JUST? God is FAIR?

Would you consider it just and fair for a human father who is angry with his son Bill for beating up his little sister, to gain satisfaction by whipping his innocent son, Joe, instead of Bill, and letting Bill go his way without receiving any correction whatever? All the people I know would consider this supremely UNJUST. Yet millions believe that God does exactly that by beating up His own beloved Son to a pulp, and thereby letting us off the hook.
Yea, the Gospel is inherently unjust, because the righteous die for the unrighteous. Under any system of justice or fairness you can possibly think of in any framework, that still works out as unjust and unfair to Christ.

The question you have to ask is, just how bad is your sin? If you don't or can't see just how bad your sin is, you can't with a level head measure out exactly what your sin deserves in the sight of an infinitely holy God.

The truth is—we only appear to love each other. What we think of as "love" isn't really the true and deep holy selfless care that love is. We always have other reasons for treating another kindly. Somehow we get something out of the relationship. It's never completely selfless, even when we give up something or our life—it's because it makes us feel good to do so.

Once you see the foundation of the value of sin in the sight of God, and that only the sacrifice of Christ can demonstrate true love in a fallen world, you'll understand it's not about Jimmy and his dad Billy showing us a chicken soup for the soul God as a kindly old man with a glint in his eye that takes us on fishing trips and slaps our back. But that kind of God will never make any sense of the agony and suffering of Christ that he endured to birth our souls and atone for our sins. Blood was shed, a life was spilled. What it behooves us is to ask: why? Not just because some bad people were mean to Jesus. But according to the plan and foreknowledge of God the Father to atone for our sins that are vile, repugnant and evil in the sight of God, such that he says the fire will not be quenched nor the maggot cease from feasting on this dead flesh. I'd hate to find that all out too late—Jesus speaks to us about his blood, and we should try to listen.

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Homer
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Re: Romans 3 and Christ's Sacrifice

Post by Homer » Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:32 am

Paidion,

Paul wrote:
This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
He passed over those sins (they were unpunished) until Christ suffered for all sins, both prior to and after the cross.
Penal substitution. Wow! God is angry at us because of our sins, but He can be "satisfied" by taking out His anger on His innocent Son, by seeing His Son tortured to death by crucifixion? Thus we get off scott free! And in acting in this way, God is JUST? God is FAIR?

Would you consider it just and fair for a human father who is angry with his son Bill for beating up his little sister, to gain satisfaction by whipping his innocent son, Joe, instead of Bill, and letting Bill go his way without receiving any correction whatever? All the people I know would consider this supremely UNJUST. Yet millions believe that God does exactly that by beating up His own beloved Son to a pulp, and thereby letting us off the hook.
So that's the way you see the sacrifice of Christ for our sins. But your idea is that we are unable to overcome sin because God, who desires us to overcome sin, nevertheless was unwilling to give us help in our weakness unless His Son was horribly and painfully murdered, which somehow, which you have no idea how, mysteriously gives us power. I think we need to stick to the scriptures and leave our analogies be.

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Paidion
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Re: Romans 3 and Christ's Sacrifice

Post by Paidion » Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:50 pm

Dizerner, you wrote:The question you have to ask is, just how bad is your sin? If you don't or can't see just how bad your sin is, you can't with a level head measure out exactly what your sin deserves in the sight of an infinitely holy God.
What's the difference how BAD my sin was when I committed it? But worse, your view, a rather common view, that past sin deserves some sort of punishment, is a fallen human idea—not God's way of looking at it (See my signature statement). People are punished by other people for what they did in the past. But past wrongdoing can never be paid for, neither by the wrongdoer, or by anyone else. God deals with sin by dealing with the character of the sinner, so that he is no longer inclined to commit that sin.

George MacDonald put it this way:
They say first, God must punish the sinner, for justice requires it; then they say he does not punish the sinner, but punishes a perfectly righteous man instead, attributes his righteousness to the sinner, and so continues just. Was there ever such a confusion, such an inversion of right and wrong! Justice could not treat a righteous man as an unrighteous; neither, if justice required the punishment of sin, could justice let the sinner go unpunished. To lay the pain upon the righteous in the name of justice is simply monstrous. No wonder unbelief is rampant. Believe in Moloch if you will, but call him Moloch, not Justice. Be sure that the thing that God gives, the righteousness that is of God, is a real thing, and not a contemptible legalism. Pray God I have no righteousness imputed to me. Let me be regarded as the sinner I am; for nothing will serve my need but to be made a righteous man, one that will no more sin. (Unspoken Sermons III, Righteousness)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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