Struggling with female eldership

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jaydam
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Struggling with female eldership

Post by jaydam » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:22 pm

I hear the arguments on both sides, and I am struggling to come to a conclusion.

This is especially in light of my seminary's class on local church where they support women in eldership. Their arguments seem valid, but then respected people also argue for the other side.

Here are my notes from what my seminary taught if anybody is interested. I am sure that, while this is the first time I am experiencing these points, many of you have heard them multiple times. Do you guys refute or agree with any of these points?

Whether anybody cares to read the notes or not, I would appreciate input on the matter. Or is it just not a clear matter?

e. Can women be elders?

i. Consider: 1Co 11:2-16; 14:34-40; 1Ti 2:9-15
1) First they could prophecy, then they couldn't speak at all, then childbirth saved them... lets look closer

ii. Evidence for women in eldership

1) Lydia was a strong leader at Philippi - Ac 16:11, 40
a) Philippi = unique, long history of prominent leaders who were female
b) Paul went to the river because there must not be a synagogue in Philippi, found Lydia
i) Lydia likely very wealthy from selling purple
One. She had a household, means she ran the house, either her husband died or she never was married
Two. She had other women with her, Paul talked about a widow taking in other widows
Three. Lydia then insists Paul and his people stay with her
Four. Lydia is the center of the Philippi church
c) Euodia and Syntyche were women ministers at Philippi, likely elders, who were in disagreement - Php 4:2-3
i) The book was targeting leadership
One. 1Ti, Paul says an elder should be rebuked publicly, and either he is breaking the law of Christ to rebuke a brother in private, or he is rebuking elders
Two. Additionally, why would Paul take the time in a precious letter to address two random women arguing in the church

2) Priscilla was a church leader along with her husband. Helped teach Apollos. Often listed first. - Ac 16:1-3, 18-19, 26; Ro 6:3-4; 1Co 16:19; 2Ti 4:19
a) Also, they are both teachers

3) Chloe was a leader at Corinth who was responsible for people - 1Co 1:11
a) Paul says, some of Chloe's people, thus she is a leader, the Greek is possessive
i) More than just people in her house, it was people she owned

4) Julia is called an apostle along with her husband. "Outstanding among the apostles" - Ro 16:7
a) Peter was married, but his wife was never listed

5) Philip had 4 daughters who were prophetesses - Ac 21:9
a) A position, not just an single act under the influence of the Holy Spirit

6) Summary, some woman held key positions of authority in the NT church. They taught, prophesied, and were called apostles.

iii. Problem passages & explanation
1) 1Co 11:2-16
a) Man should be interpreted as husband, since obviously not a man is in charge of all women
b) Point, wives ought to respect their husbands, but women may minister

2) 1Co 14:34-35
a) Falls right in the middle of Paul discussing prophecy. Located in different places on two oldest manuscripts
b) In the same book Paul said women can speak
c) Passage read seamlessly if we take the verses out
d) Don't build theology on a obscure passage that doesn't even fit into its own surroundings - build theology on clear passages, see if the obscure fit
e) Point, the verses are an obscure statement that seems to contradict Paul's previous points
f) Point, issue is obviously husband and wives again, Paul tells the woman to ask her husband later. The person to remain silent is not all women, but a wife
i) In that day women were very uneducated, finding freedom in Christianity, getting incredible teaching, one of them in the middle of the sermon says I don't understand, so Paul says if you don't understand something ask your husband later, also if you ask the teacher a question with your husband right next to you, in the culture it would be offensive that you look to your teacher, not your husband for understanding
One. Paul is telling women to be quiet, not for being a woman, but they were uneducated and would have to interrupt the flow of teaching, does not speak to women in ministry

3) 1Ti 2:11-15 (hardest one)
a) 2:1-8 Paul is talking about men, not as husbands specifically
b) 2:9 Likewise, is then talking about all females, not just wives
c) V11 - women should receive instruction, first thing that would go against the norm
d) Be submissive BECAUSE…
e) V12 - Gk word for authority compares to the idea of overthrowing from the Gen curse
i) So it isn't that Paul is saying a woman can't be a leader, but how she is to be a leader
f) Husbands and wives are at issue in these verses 2:1ff, not just gender, per the Genesis quote
g) This warns against wives usurping their husbands' authority, not the position of women in leadership

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steve
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Re: Struggling with female eldership

Post by steve » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:03 pm

Hi Jaydam,

I would make certain responses to your professors, as indicated below:
ii. Evidence for women in eldership

1) Lydia was a strong leader at Philippi - Ac 16:11, 40
If one wants to read see Lydia as a church leader in this passage, I suppose he/she can find a way to do so. If one is not seeking to prove such a point, nothing will be found in scripture to give that impression. When Paul addressed the church leaders in Philippi (Phil.1:1) he used the masculine nouns: overseers (episkopoi) and deacons (diakonois). He gives no hint that Lydia, nor any other woman, was included in this group.
a) Philippi = unique, long history of prominent leaders who were female
Church leaders or political leaders? If this means church leaders, then there were none in apostolic times that I can see. I know of none afterward either, but, if there were, this would prove nothing about apostolic Christianity.

If the reference is to political leaders, I can't verify or deny that the pagan town of Philippi had some female civil leaders. But, unless Paul's policy was to set up churches after the model of pagan political entities, this information would not help us in our inquiry (assuming we are, in fact, making an inquiry, rather than a partisan case).
b) Paul went to the river because there must not be a synagogue in Philippi, found Lydia
Yes, she was among the Jews there that he found. She is mentioned by name, while others are not, because she became the hostess of the apostles. Whether she ever held any leadership role in the church or not, we are not given a clue.
i) Lydia likely very wealthy from selling purple
She was clearly a business person—not among the things Paul lists as qualifying one for spiritual leadership.
One. She had a household, means she ran the house, either her husband died or she never was married
This is a distinct possibility, but not relevant to the question of church leadership.
Two. She had other women with her, Paul talked about a widow taking in other widows
This seems to me a non sequitur, since none of the women alluded to are said to be widows, nor is it said that Lydia attended to their needs, nor would the fact that she did so (if established) tell us anything about her being an elder in the church.
Three. Lydia then insists Paul and his people stay with her
As I mentioned, she was the hostess of the apostles. I have had many men and women host me or my team in their homes without their being in a leadership role in their churches. The two activities are unconnected.
Four. Lydia is the center of the Philippi church
Hopefully Christ was the center of the church. We never read of Lydia having any special role in the church, other than hospitality.
c) Euodia and Syntyche were women ministers at Philippi, likely elders, who were in disagreement - Php 4:2-3
That these women were having a disagreement is easily seen. That they were leaders of any kind in the church is sheer speculation.
i) The book was targeting leadership
I don't think this can be established from the contents of the book.
One. 1Ti, Paul says an elder should be rebuked publicly, and either he is breaking the law of Christ to rebuke a brother in private, or he is rebuking elders
I find no rebuke in Paul's instructions to these women. Looks more like an exhortation to me. This seems (frankly) like a desperate argument.
Two. Additionally, why would Paul take the time in a precious letter to address two random women arguing in the church
Any number of suggestions might be made that are as likely to be true as the suggestion that they were elders. I just watched a church split last month where certain problems were stirred up by the wives of certain prominent men complaining against the pastors. Neither the women, nor their husbands, were in leadership positions, but they managed, through their lack of maturity, to disrupt the whole church for about two months. Such a case (and many others of similar magnitude) would be worth addressing in a letter to a church.
2) Priscilla was a church leader along with her husband. Helped teach Apollos. Often listed first. - Ac 16:1-3, 18-19, 26; Ro 6:3-4; 1Co 16:19; 2Ti 4:19
I have no doubt that Pricilla and Aquila were regarded as a leading couple (even teachers) in the church. However, there is no suggestion that they were appointed by Paul, or anyone else, as elders. They were a relatively mobile couple—natives of Pontus moving first to Italy, and then to Corinth (Acts 18:2), then to Ephesus (Acts 18:18-19, 24-26), then back to Rome (Rom.16:3). I think eldership was usually a more settled leadership role in a local church. Their ability to teach Apollos the way of the Lord more clearly tells us nothing of their holding any office in the church, any more than does Ananias' ministering to Saul (Acts 9:10-17), or my having a radio program. Why must we assume that only the official clergy did ministry in the first century. This has never been true—either then nor since.
a) Also, they are both teachers
My wife and I are both teachers. Neither of us are church elders.
3) Chloe was a leader at Corinth who was responsible for people - 1Co 1:11
Chloe is never identified in scripture as a church leader. She is not said to be responsible for any more people than would be any other matron of a household.
a) Paul says, some of Chloe's people, thus she is a leader, the Greek is possessive
i) More than just people in her house, it was people she owned
The normal assumption would be that they were slaves in her household. Elders don't actually own people. At least they weren't allowed to in apostolic times.
4) Julia is called an apostle along with her husband. "Outstanding among the apostles" - Ro 16:7
This person's name, in my Greek New Testament is "Junias," the gender of which has long been disputed—as has the meaning of "notable among the apostles." Does this mean that Junias was himself/herself reckoned to be one of the apostles, or only highly regarded by them? Scholars disagree.

Let us assume that this was indeed a man and wife whom Paul reckons to be "apostles." The members of an apostolic team are often called "apostles" regardless of the role (leadership or otherwise) that they performed on the team (e.g., 2 Cor.8:23 [Gr.]; 1 Thess.2:6). I can see no problem in a married couple (e.g., Peter and his wife, along with Mark, and possibly others) being members of an apostolic team, each member being referred to as an apostle. The members of a missionary team are all called "missionaries"—though some of them may be team leaders, and others (like John Mark, when traveling with Paul and Barnabas) may serve as "assistants" (Acts 13:5).

Though Peter's wife, like the wives of other apostles and "brothers of the Lord," seemed to travel as part of the apostolic entourage (1 Cor.9:5), we know of no leadership role held by Peter's wife, nor any other woman. The same may well be seen with many missionary couples today.
a) Peter was married, but his wife was never listed
I don't know how this functions as an argument in the controversy about female leadership. Again, I too am married. This does not make my wife a talk-show host.
5) Philip had 4 daughters who were prophetesses - Ac 21:9
The Bible does not say that these girls were prophetesses (though they may have been). The Greek says that they were "prophesying." People may prophesy without being prophets (1 Cor.12:29; 14:1,31). It is readily admitted that a woman can prophesy (Acts 2:17-18; 1 Cor.11:5). This does not mean she is a prophetess—even less that she is a church elder. Prophets are distinguished from those in eldership, which is pastoral ministry (Eph.4:11).
a) A position, not just an single act under the influence of the Holy Spirit
Applying this statement to Philip's daughters is pure speculation.
6) Summary, some woman held key positions of authority in the NT church. They taught, prophesied, and were called apostles.
The first of these statements is pure guesswork, without evidence. The second and third are undisputed, but irrelevant. The fourth is disputed, but likewise irrelevant. None of the examples give any hint of females being church elders. I have to say that, if this is the way biblical exegesis is done and taught in seminaries, I do not regret having missed the experience. These arguments do demonstrate two very helpful observations, however:

1) that academic degrees in theology do not necessarily require nor confer clear and unbiased thinking skills; and

2) that the attempt to prove there were female elders in apostolic times cannot hope to succeed through the employment of regular, sensible exegetical methods, and must resort to incredibly fanciful eisegesis. This is not encouraging for one hoping to be convinced, with a clear conscience, that his egalitarianism has a strong biblical foundation.
3) 1Ti 2:11-15 (hardest one)
a) 2:1-8 Paul is talking about men, not as husbands specifically
b) 2:9 Likewise, is then talking about all females, not just wives
c) V11 - women should receive instruction, first thing that would go against the norm
d) Be submissive BECAUSE…
e) V12 - Gk word for authority compares to the idea of overthrowing from the Gen curse
i) So it isn't that Paul is saying a woman can't be a leader, but how she is to be a leader
f) Husbands and wives are at issue in these verses 2:1ff, not just gender, per the Genesis quote
g) This warns against wives usurping their husbands' authority, not the position of women in leadership
This passage is indeed a hard one for egalitarianism. They like to discuss context, unless the context immediately following is consulted. The passage immediately following is giving the qualifications for elders/overseers (i.e., pastors). This strongly suggests that the discussion about "teaching" and "having authority" in the immediate preceding passage is concerned with eldership qualifications as well. In any case, whatever we may do with 1 Timothy 2:11-15, the passage immediately adjacent to it says that the overseer must be the "husband of one wife." This ought to figure into the question under discussion.

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jaydam
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Re: Struggling with female eldership

Post by jaydam » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:51 pm

Awesome. Thank you so much Steve!

Some of what you hit on are questions that I had in class, such as "How does seeing Lydia as a wealthy business person who hosted the apostles and even hosted gatherings at her house qualify us to assume her eldership?"

Julia should be Junias in my notes, but my spellchecker must have changed it.

Learning theology full-time under people who have already made their minds up about issues has proven to be difficult as my own back-study on their teaching falls greatly behind the pace with which they can teach.

It is truly a blessing from God to live in a time where I have access to such a knowledgeable base of people like yourself. Thanks again for the input!

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Re: Struggling with female eldership

Post by steve » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:59 pm

my own back-study on their teaching falls greatly behind the pace with which they can teach.
How far along are you in your seminary course? Are you working on a Masters, or a Doctorate? Just curious.

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jaydam
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Re: Struggling with female eldership

Post by jaydam » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:16 pm

I'm working on a bachelor's, and I am a sophomore. I was the oldest freshman last year, and the oldest sophomore this year at 33 y/o. Its a long story, but to to put it shortly, I was not a Christian and then on day, in 2011, I heard this voice out of nowhere that told me he loved me and has been waiting patiently for me to come to him, and I knew instantly that it was God, and I immediately went to church. At church I was instantly delivered from drug and alcohol addiction, and life has never been the same.

My experiences since that day have been of prophecy, miracles, being asked to speak in churches, and more, but it began to far outpace my knowledge base, so I began seminary. I've experienced the supernatural stuff, but I know I need to learn the foundational things. I'm just over 2 years in church and I can already see the difference between the person who has known the power of God far longer than myself, but they have never stopped to learn, and those who take the time to build a foundation of knowledge to go with the power.

I did grow up in a Christian home, but I left the faith in my teen years, and then I spent over a decade in the military.

Didn't mean to give you all the testimony stuff, but it is the explanation as to why I am working on my bachelor's at my age.

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Re: Struggling with female eldership

Post by jaydam » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:26 pm

Additionally, I agree with your summary of seminary, but for my purposes it is proving very useful as a trial by fire. I do not accept the things they say at face value, so seminary is forcing me to build a foundation quickly, not in that I am learning a lot from them per se, but that it is bringing up tons of stuff that I must search out myself and find my own beliefs quickly to support in my papers and other work.

I believe that through the challenge of seminary (not the teaching of seminary) I am growing much faster than I would have otherwise.

Perhaps it is the military in me, or just my genetics, but I am one that believes I grow much faster in an environment that provides conflicts with my beliefs rather than one that agrees with everything I believe. I enjoy such an environment, with its challenges and growth. Seminary is proving to be such an environment.

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steve
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Re: Struggling with female eldership

Post by steve » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:46 pm

Wow! Thanks for the great testimony, Brother! Good for you! I trust this forum can serve as a helpful counter-balance and will expedite your learning and growth. God bless you!

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jaydam
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Re: Struggling with female eldership

Post by jaydam » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:53 pm

It already has, and I hope to use it more. One of these days I plan on calling into your show and saying, "Hi." as well. Have a great evening!

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Re: Struggling with female eldership

Post by Singalphile » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:18 am

Regarding 1 Timothy 3 - "An overseer, then, must be ... the husband of one wife ... " - the same requirement is given for deacons a few sentences later in verse 12: "Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households."

If that requirement in 1 Timothy 3:2 (and also in Titus 1:5ff) by itself necessarily means that an overseer must be a man, then a deacon also must be a man.

But that seems to be an uncommon view. I've always heard about "deaconesses" in the Bible. I think that's a bit overstated, since only one woman, Phoebe, is referred to as a diakonos (Rom 16:1), and that word could simply mean "servant". But I do see that 1 Tim 3:11 could be a reference to female deacons. That seems more likely than not, imo.

That means, to my mind, that it's difficult to apply 1 Timothy 3 to disqualify women from overseer work, since the same wording is used to refer to deacons, and women are not disqualified from serving in the church as deacons, or so it would seem. I suppose that may just be how they talked back then, such that it was understood that a statement using male terms was generally understood to include the female equivalent, as we might often do with just pronouns. Or perhaps it would have been unnecessary to instruct women not to have multiple men/husbands as that would have been extremely rare. I don't know.

That leaves 1 Timothy 2, where Paul says, "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet." (And maybe 1 Cor 14:34-35.)

Anyway, it's not as clear to me as I once thought, and might depend on the circumstances. I guess I still see things more from the complementarian view. (I should say, though, that I would have no reason at all to limit elder/overseer and deacon service to men were it not for Paul's statements.)
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Re: Struggling with female eldership

Post by Homer » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:49 pm

It seems to me beyond dispute that the husband is head over the home. He is to be the leader, but as a servant, modeled after Christ's relationship to the church (1 Cor. 11 & Ephesians 5. Imo it is implausible that this same situation would not be true in the church as well. Seems to me implausible that a woman
would be an elder over her husband and then be subject to him at home which is to be a spiritual place, as is all of life for the Christian.

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