Struggling with female eldership
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:22 pm
I hear the arguments on both sides, and I am struggling to come to a conclusion.
This is especially in light of my seminary's class on local church where they support women in eldership. Their arguments seem valid, but then respected people also argue for the other side.
Here are my notes from what my seminary taught if anybody is interested. I am sure that, while this is the first time I am experiencing these points, many of you have heard them multiple times. Do you guys refute or agree with any of these points?
Whether anybody cares to read the notes or not, I would appreciate input on the matter. Or is it just not a clear matter?
e. Can women be elders?
i. Consider: 1Co 11:2-16; 14:34-40; 1Ti 2:9-15
1) First they could prophecy, then they couldn't speak at all, then childbirth saved them... lets look closer
ii. Evidence for women in eldership
1) Lydia was a strong leader at Philippi - Ac 16:11, 40
a) Philippi = unique, long history of prominent leaders who were female
b) Paul went to the river because there must not be a synagogue in Philippi, found Lydia
i) Lydia likely very wealthy from selling purple
One. She had a household, means she ran the house, either her husband died or she never was married
Two. She had other women with her, Paul talked about a widow taking in other widows
Three. Lydia then insists Paul and his people stay with her
Four. Lydia is the center of the Philippi church
c) Euodia and Syntyche were women ministers at Philippi, likely elders, who were in disagreement - Php 4:2-3
i) The book was targeting leadership
One. 1Ti, Paul says an elder should be rebuked publicly, and either he is breaking the law of Christ to rebuke a brother in private, or he is rebuking elders
Two. Additionally, why would Paul take the time in a precious letter to address two random women arguing in the church
2) Priscilla was a church leader along with her husband. Helped teach Apollos. Often listed first. - Ac 16:1-3, 18-19, 26; Ro 6:3-4; 1Co 16:19; 2Ti 4:19
a) Also, they are both teachers
3) Chloe was a leader at Corinth who was responsible for people - 1Co 1:11
a) Paul says, some of Chloe's people, thus she is a leader, the Greek is possessive
i) More than just people in her house, it was people she owned
4) Julia is called an apostle along with her husband. "Outstanding among the apostles" - Ro 16:7
a) Peter was married, but his wife was never listed
5) Philip had 4 daughters who were prophetesses - Ac 21:9
a) A position, not just an single act under the influence of the Holy Spirit
6) Summary, some woman held key positions of authority in the NT church. They taught, prophesied, and were called apostles.
iii. Problem passages & explanation
1) 1Co 11:2-16
a) Man should be interpreted as husband, since obviously not a man is in charge of all women
b) Point, wives ought to respect their husbands, but women may minister
2) 1Co 14:34-35
a) Falls right in the middle of Paul discussing prophecy. Located in different places on two oldest manuscripts
b) In the same book Paul said women can speak
c) Passage read seamlessly if we take the verses out
d) Don't build theology on a obscure passage that doesn't even fit into its own surroundings - build theology on clear passages, see if the obscure fit
e) Point, the verses are an obscure statement that seems to contradict Paul's previous points
f) Point, issue is obviously husband and wives again, Paul tells the woman to ask her husband later. The person to remain silent is not all women, but a wife
i) In that day women were very uneducated, finding freedom in Christianity, getting incredible teaching, one of them in the middle of the sermon says I don't understand, so Paul says if you don't understand something ask your husband later, also if you ask the teacher a question with your husband right next to you, in the culture it would be offensive that you look to your teacher, not your husband for understanding
One. Paul is telling women to be quiet, not for being a woman, but they were uneducated and would have to interrupt the flow of teaching, does not speak to women in ministry
3) 1Ti 2:11-15 (hardest one)
a) 2:1-8 Paul is talking about men, not as husbands specifically
b) 2:9 Likewise, is then talking about all females, not just wives
c) V11 - women should receive instruction, first thing that would go against the norm
d) Be submissive BECAUSE…
e) V12 - Gk word for authority compares to the idea of overthrowing from the Gen curse
i) So it isn't that Paul is saying a woman can't be a leader, but how she is to be a leader
f) Husbands and wives are at issue in these verses 2:1ff, not just gender, per the Genesis quote
g) This warns against wives usurping their husbands' authority, not the position of women in leadership
This is especially in light of my seminary's class on local church where they support women in eldership. Their arguments seem valid, but then respected people also argue for the other side.
Here are my notes from what my seminary taught if anybody is interested. I am sure that, while this is the first time I am experiencing these points, many of you have heard them multiple times. Do you guys refute or agree with any of these points?
Whether anybody cares to read the notes or not, I would appreciate input on the matter. Or is it just not a clear matter?
e. Can women be elders?
i. Consider: 1Co 11:2-16; 14:34-40; 1Ti 2:9-15
1) First they could prophecy, then they couldn't speak at all, then childbirth saved them... lets look closer
ii. Evidence for women in eldership
1) Lydia was a strong leader at Philippi - Ac 16:11, 40
a) Philippi = unique, long history of prominent leaders who were female
b) Paul went to the river because there must not be a synagogue in Philippi, found Lydia
i) Lydia likely very wealthy from selling purple
One. She had a household, means she ran the house, either her husband died or she never was married
Two. She had other women with her, Paul talked about a widow taking in other widows
Three. Lydia then insists Paul and his people stay with her
Four. Lydia is the center of the Philippi church
c) Euodia and Syntyche were women ministers at Philippi, likely elders, who were in disagreement - Php 4:2-3
i) The book was targeting leadership
One. 1Ti, Paul says an elder should be rebuked publicly, and either he is breaking the law of Christ to rebuke a brother in private, or he is rebuking elders
Two. Additionally, why would Paul take the time in a precious letter to address two random women arguing in the church
2) Priscilla was a church leader along with her husband. Helped teach Apollos. Often listed first. - Ac 16:1-3, 18-19, 26; Ro 6:3-4; 1Co 16:19; 2Ti 4:19
a) Also, they are both teachers
3) Chloe was a leader at Corinth who was responsible for people - 1Co 1:11
a) Paul says, some of Chloe's people, thus she is a leader, the Greek is possessive
i) More than just people in her house, it was people she owned
4) Julia is called an apostle along with her husband. "Outstanding among the apostles" - Ro 16:7
a) Peter was married, but his wife was never listed
5) Philip had 4 daughters who were prophetesses - Ac 21:9
a) A position, not just an single act under the influence of the Holy Spirit
6) Summary, some woman held key positions of authority in the NT church. They taught, prophesied, and were called apostles.
iii. Problem passages & explanation
1) 1Co 11:2-16
a) Man should be interpreted as husband, since obviously not a man is in charge of all women
b) Point, wives ought to respect their husbands, but women may minister
2) 1Co 14:34-35
a) Falls right in the middle of Paul discussing prophecy. Located in different places on two oldest manuscripts
b) In the same book Paul said women can speak
c) Passage read seamlessly if we take the verses out
d) Don't build theology on a obscure passage that doesn't even fit into its own surroundings - build theology on clear passages, see if the obscure fit
e) Point, the verses are an obscure statement that seems to contradict Paul's previous points
f) Point, issue is obviously husband and wives again, Paul tells the woman to ask her husband later. The person to remain silent is not all women, but a wife
i) In that day women were very uneducated, finding freedom in Christianity, getting incredible teaching, one of them in the middle of the sermon says I don't understand, so Paul says if you don't understand something ask your husband later, also if you ask the teacher a question with your husband right next to you, in the culture it would be offensive that you look to your teacher, not your husband for understanding
One. Paul is telling women to be quiet, not for being a woman, but they were uneducated and would have to interrupt the flow of teaching, does not speak to women in ministry
3) 1Ti 2:11-15 (hardest one)
a) 2:1-8 Paul is talking about men, not as husbands specifically
b) 2:9 Likewise, is then talking about all females, not just wives
c) V11 - women should receive instruction, first thing that would go against the norm
d) Be submissive BECAUSE…
e) V12 - Gk word for authority compares to the idea of overthrowing from the Gen curse
i) So it isn't that Paul is saying a woman can't be a leader, but how she is to be a leader
f) Husbands and wives are at issue in these verses 2:1ff, not just gender, per the Genesis quote
g) This warns against wives usurping their husbands' authority, not the position of women in leadership