Modern apostles

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mattrose
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Re: Modern apostles

Post by mattrose » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:22 pm

Homer's position is reasonable and a scriptural case can be made for it.

There was something significant about "The Twelve." Not only were they selected directly by Jesus, but they were with Him from His baptism through His ascension (Acts 1:21-22). It seemed to be significant that there were 12 and no more or less (hence the need to replace Judas, but apparently not James.... or the fact that they are sometimes referred to as the 12 even when there weren't 12 of them!). Revelation 21:14 highlights these 12 as having eternal significance. I don't think there is anything wrong with putting them in a special category called capital "A" Apostles

Of course, there were other apostles in Scripture too. They seem to be marked by their 'sent' nature and their multi-giftedness, including the gift of being able to perform signs and wonders that confirmed there status as apostles. But these (and subsequent) apostles need not be considered as foundational as the original Apostles who served in and around Jesus own ministry. Those were foundational to the Christian movement (Ephesians 2:20).

Personally, I am quite sure I'll not meet, during this present age, any Apostles who served in that foundational role and were with Jesus from baptism to ascension. I've yet to meet anyone that I would consider even a lower case "a" apostle, to be honest (unless one means it most generally as "one sent"). Unless one equates an apostle with a missionary I, personally, have seen no evidence of modern day apostles.

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Homer
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Re: Modern apostles

Post by Homer » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:37 pm

Homer, what do you mean by capital "A" Apostles? Do you find any such mentioned in the New Testament? Or is this a designation which you have invented to describe a particular subset of apostles? Early copyists of the NT manuscripts (the originals do not exist) copied these manuscripts ALL IN CAPITALS.
So there seems to be no differentation between "Apostle" and "apostle" in the New Testament.
I'm surprised, Paidion, that you do not acknowledge that the Greek apostolos literally means "one who is sent", a delegate, or an ambassador. Surely you know this. There are Apostles, and then there are (common) apostles in the scriptures. Consider 2 Corinthians 8:23:

2 Corinthians 8:23, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

23. As for Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker among you; as for our brethren, they are messengers (GRK. apostelos) of the churches, a glory to Christ.

And Philippians 2:25, NASB:

25. But I thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger (apostolos) and minister to my need

By the way, the Eastern Orthodox Church regards Clement of Rome as having been an apostle. I am not sure whether or not any of the second or third century writers regarded him as such.
But did Clement regard himself to be an Apostle? I am not an expert on the early church fathers, but I have read that not one of them claimed to have the status of the Twelve. If we were to continue to have Apostles, surely it would have been among these men.

As Matt mentioned, the foundation seems to have been completed.

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jaydam
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Re: Modern apostles

Post by jaydam » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:47 pm

mattrose wrote:I've yet to meet anyone that I would consider even a lower case "a" apostle, to be honest (unless one means it most generally as "one sent"). Unless one equates an apostle with a missionary I, personally, have seen no evidence of modern day apostles.
And that is my hangup. It seems evident from the works of those we would consider THE Apostles, that an apostle is a multi-faceted, special individual who carried everything from a special ability for signs and wonders (2Co 12:12) to a special degree of authority on church matters.

I would believe I do not see an explicit statement in the Bible that the position went away, but I also do not see anybody since THE Apostles has seemed to wield the full spectrum of the positional authority and anointing. Certainly different aspects are seen in different people, but I cannot find latter era individuals that seem to have all aspects. Unless I am missing somebody.

Thus, I find myself not seeing a clear delineation of when the function ceased, but I struggle to see it in anybody since the first century.

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Paidion
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Re: Modern apostles

Post by Paidion » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:12 am

Homer wrote:I'm surprised, Paidion, that you do not acknowledge that the Greek apostolos literally means "one who is sent", a delegate, or an ambassador. Surely you know this.
I do acknowledge that "αποστολος" has this meaning. Where have I denied it?
There are Apostles, and then there are (common) apostles in the scriptures.
I'm beginning to think that your uppercase A "Apostles" refers to the twelve only. Or do you include Paul? If so, what qualified him for the big A.
You haven't yet commented on Barnabus being an apostle. Big A or small? And if big, what qualified him as such?

What scriptural evidence is there that the Apostolic ministry didn't continue? I quoted this passage:

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ... (Ephesians 4:11-13 NKJV)

Since we Christians have not yet come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, that surely indicates that the above mentioned ministries continue. Do you have any comment about this?

Thank you for the passages in which "αποστολος" does not seem to mean anything more than "messenger". Previously, I hadn't noticed the "αποστολος" in these passages. I guess I had read these passages only in English in which most translations render the word as "messenger".
But did Clement regard himself to be an Apostle?
There is no indication of it in his letter to the Corinthians shortly after Paul and Peter's death.
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Homer
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Re: Modern apostles

Post by Homer » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:53 pm

I believe the term "apostle" is used in Ephesians 4:11 in the narrow sense, capital "A". It refers to the twelve and Paul. Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:20-21 of the church, looking upon the church as a temple:

20. having been built upon built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone."


The cornerstone and foundation were completed.

Ephesians 3:5, Paul writes about the gospel:

5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit would guide the apostles into all truth (John 14:26; 15:26,27; 16:13). They spoke and wrote by the direct inspiration of the Spirit. What they said and their writings, along with that of "prophets," constitute the New Testament. The church is built upon this foundation of truth.

If we have Apostles today, wouldn't what they say have equal authority to the first twelve and Paul? The Catholic Church claims just this authority. For example, regarding baptism of infants and baptism by sprinkling (and many other things), the Catholic church sees no need to argue over Greek words or defend their practices from scripture. No need to bother with that, they simply claim apostolic authority to change the practice and/or enjoin new practices. And why wouldn't apostles today have the authority, just as the original twelve and Paul, to provide additional revelation?

Consider what was actually involved in being an Apostle. We know the Lord selected twelve disciples (learners) to become the twelve Apostles (ones sent forth). These men, as personal eyewitnesses of Christ and under the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit, were the official witnesses of Christ and his resurrection. This is true, whether talking about the twelve (John 15:26,27; Acts 1:2,8,21-22; 2:32; 3:15; 4:33; 5:32; 10:39-41) or the apostle Paul, who saw the risen Christ ( I Cor. 9:1; I Corinthians 15:7-10). In addition to their personal testimony, the Holy Spirit further verified and authenticated what the apostles said by miracles and supernatural manifestations (Hebrews 2:3,4; John 15:26, 27; Acts 1:8; Acts 4:33; II Cor. 12:11,12). The church is built upon the foundation of these inspired men, who got the church established and left us the Scriptures to guide us. Through the scriptures, their work continues to this day.

There are no more Apostles in the church today than there would be another Christ (Ephesians 2:20); all alike and together constitute the foundation. The Apostles work has been done. We have the New Testament. Eyewitnesses have no successors, and consequently the apostles have none.

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Paidion
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Re: Modern apostles

Post by Paidion » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:42 am

You haven't yet commented on Barnabus being an apostle.(Acts 14:14)
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: Modern apostles

Post by Homer » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:16 am

Barnabas became an apostle (small a, "one who is sent") along with Paul, who was an Apostle (big A) when they were sent out on a mission by the church and Holy Spirit:

Acts 13:1-4, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

13. Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2. While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3. Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4. So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia and from there they sailed to Cyprus.


Paul's "A" status came directly from Jesus' appointment, Barnabas' small "a" came from the Holy Spirit through the church.

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Paidion
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Re: Modern apostles

Post by Paidion » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:43 am

Homer wrote:Barnabas became an apostle (small a, "one who is sent") along with Paul, who was an Apostle (big A) when they were sent out on a mission by the church and Holy Spirit.
But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out into the crowd... (Acts 14:14)

I was going to ask you how big the "a" is in the word "apostles" in the above verse. Half-size? (one of the them being "small a" and the other big)

But now, after pondering it, I think you might mean that both of them were small "a" apostles in the sense that they were sent out together by the Holy Spirit, and IN ADDITION to being small a, Paul was already big A because of Jesus' appointment. Is that your position?
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: Modern apostles

Post by Homer » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:29 am

But now, after pondering it, I think you might mean that both of them were small "a" apostles in the sense that they were sent out together by the Holy Spirit, and IN ADDITION to being small a, Paul was already big A because of Jesus' appointment. Is that your position?
That's it!

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