Separation of Church and state

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schoel
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Separation of Church and state

Post by schoel » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:57 am

On the Sunday around Memorial day in the church my family attends, a video was played to honor veterans.
It began with a description of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, then proceeded to claim that American soldiers have sacrificed in the same way.
The implication was that military service and death of soldiers fighting in wars was similar or representative of the cross.

I honestly found the point of that video blasphemous. Believe what you will about the American military and patriotism, but to me, there are critical differences between the military and Jesus
They are:
- Jesus gave his life to ransom all people, including those who hated him and fought against him. A soldier's job is to kill the state designated "enemy"
- Jesus accomplished victory through love of all. A soldier achieves victory through death and destruction.
- Jesus' obedience was to God alone. A soldier vows to obey his human leadership without question.

Secondly, do any of these belong in a meeting of Christians ever?
- honoring the US government,
- recognition of the military or veterans of wars,
- praying for anything regarding a war other than peace and redemption for all involved
- the Pledge of Allegiance to the US state

If you believe they do, why would the inclusion of the above be appropriate here in the US versus Nazi Germany or Communist China?

Thoughts?

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Homer
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by Homer » Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:03 am

Schoel,

I am in sympathy with you. I do not even like to see flags in church.

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steve
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by steve » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:11 am

These are my sentiments as well. The Jews considered the Roman standards, with their carved eagles, when brought into the holy city, to be blasphemous. I was in a church the other day full of American flags—with a carved eagle perched on the top of each flagpole. This is a serious blind spot for the American Church (some even display Israeli flags on the stage!).

schoel
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by schoel » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:51 pm

steve wrote:These are my sentiments as well. The Jews considered the Roman standards, with their carved eagles, when brought into the holy city, to be blasphemous. I was in a church the other day full of American flags—with a carved eagle perched on the top of each flagpole. This is a serious blind spot for the American Church (some even display Israeli flags on the stage!).
Steve -
Have you considered a topical teaching on this? I'd love to hear it.

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mattrose
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by mattrose » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:50 pm

I think the obvious parallel between a soldier and Jesus is the practical (not theoretical) willingness to die for others. This is a trait that is worthy of honor and respect.

There are also good parallels to make between soldiers and Christians. Both put on armor (Eph. 6). Both submit to their commanding officers (2 Tim. 2:4). Both endure hardship for a greater good (2 Tim 2:3).

But you are absolutely right that the violence associated with soldiers needs to be clearly distinguished from the non-violence associated with Jesus. Parallels exist, but too often the two seem to be essentially equated!

All that being said, I have sometimes pondered that the reason so many American Christians are so intensely patriotic... and the reason that patriotism has found its way into the church... is because the Gospel hasn't been communicated as a message about another Kingdom. It has been shared as an individualized product. Many people want to serve a purpose greater than themselves, and if the church doesn't mention such a purpose (The Kingdom) then they're likely to turn elsewhere (their earthly nation).

schoel
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by schoel » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:41 pm

mattrose wrote:I think the obvious parallel between a soldier and Jesus is the practical (not theoretical) willingness to die for others. This is a trait that is worthy of honor and respect.
The obvious parallel that you mention may be more mythical than reality. It assumes that soldiers are primarily motivated into the military by the desire to place themselves in harm's way for others. However, many are motivated by other things such as a job, a paycheck, hatred for or a desire to kill the perceived enemy, a way to pay for college, family tradition, etc. To me, the actual presence of an desire to lay down one's life for others by military personnel is greatly assumed and to use a soldier as an example for this does more to sugar coat military service than to motivate people toward such an attitude.

Now there are stories of selfless action taken by soldiers (throwing oneself onto a grenade to save fellow soldiers, risking death or injury to rescue a fallen comrade, etc) but all of these are in the context of the overall objective of death and destruction of "the enemy".

Aren't there much better examples or parallels to selfless sacrifice (ie. Mother Teresa's life, Dietrich Bonhoeffer's death...)?
mattrose wrote:
But you are absolutely right that the violence associated with soldiers needs to be clearly distinguished from the non-violence associated with Jesus. Parallels exist, but too often the two seem to be essentially equated!

All that being said, I have sometimes pondered that the reason so many American Christians are so intensely patriotic... and the reason that patriotism has found its way into the church... is because the Gospel hasn't been communicated as a message about another Kingdom. It has been shared as an individualized product. Many people want to serve a purpose greater than themselves, and if the church doesn't mention such a purpose (The Kingdom) then they're likely to turn elsewhere (their earthly nation).
Well said!
It is also easier to follow the purposes and means (revenge vs love, exclusion vs inclusion, force/coercion vs choice) of an earthly kingdom of the Kingdom of Christ.

MMathis
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by MMathis » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:20 am

I'm surprised.

We should take that rubbish about the Creator out of the Declaration of Independence.

I thought it was nice when our Pastor had the vets stand on Memorial Day and thanked us. I am a Vietnam vet and not used to being thanked. The more time that passes since WW2 the less chance this country has to survive. A dead soldier gave you the right to have a church. Not CNN or a politician.

All I've read about our founders said the opposite of separation of church and state. That is a late addition to our history. I don't know of any mention of it until about 1948 ish.

End of rant
MMathis
Las Vegas NV

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mattrose
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by mattrose » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:50 am

MMathis wrote: I thought it was nice when our Pastor had the vets stand on Memorial Day and thanked us. I am a Vietnam vet and not used to being thanked. The more time that passes since WW2 the less chance this country has to survive. A dead soldier gave you the right to have a church. Not CNN or a politician.
American citizens, I think, should be very thankful for American soldiers. They've helped to preserve an almost unheard of level of freedom relative to world history. But the type of freedom they've preserved is not really a biblical value in my opinion. There are different kinds of freedom. The Scriptures value freedom from sin. This type of freedom is available no matter how strong (or weak) the military of an earthly nation. American soldiers should be thanked by the nation and thanked well. Christian churches can thank them too, but I think the point of the original post was that this should not be done at the cost of confusion. Christians should not support violence. We resonate with the willingness to sacrifice. I think there is more residence for soldiers that were drafted or entered the military b/c of a sense of obligation to their nation than ones who took a calculated risk for personal benefit. The opening post was frustrated that some churches seem to equate the sacrifice of Jesus with the sacrifice or soldiers when, in fact, there are some incredibly important differences.

schoel
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by schoel » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:55 am

MMathis wrote:We should take that rubbish about the Creator out of the Declaration of Independence.
...
All I've read about our founders said the opposite of separation of church and state. That is a late addition to our history. I don't know of any mention of it until about 1948 ish.
It seems to me that the biggest issue regarding separation of church and state, is that too many Christians in America are too invested in the government known as U.S.A. This has resulted in a blind eye to the state's evil, a false hope in using the state to accomplish the work of God and a compromise of the words of Jesus (ie. love your enemies, etc).
In looking back throughout history, governments/states have been the primary persecutor of the church. When we encounter an area in time where the state didn't persecute the church, a closer look at the church in that area will show compromise with and attachment to the state.

Followers of Christ should be highly skeptical of state authority and actions, call out evil regardless of the cost and point to the true Kingdom of Christ. We should be focused on God's Kingdom instead of the founding documents of the state of this land.

MMathis wrote:... A dead soldier gave you the right to have a church...
This is a pervasive American myth that allows approval of the wars of the US Government while silencing the conscience regarding the realities of these violent and destructive conflicts. Review the events of any of the wars of the US government over the last 200 years to see that with each conflict, actual freedom in America was diminished through sedition laws, movement/trade restrictions or new taxes.

More importantly, it was the loving sacrifice of Jesus created the church, gives it power, courage and perseverance regardless of the "freedoms" allowed by the state of any given land. It is on Him our gratitude rests. When state persecution of the church comes in America, it will be because we finally found our voice in calling Americans away from idolatry of the state to the Kingdom of Christ, and people will be able to distinguish the followers of Christ from citizens of the US Government.

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Jepne
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by Jepne » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:18 am

'' I am a Vietnam vet and not used to being thanked. The more time that passes since WW2 the less chance this country has to survive. A dead soldier gave you the right to have a church. Not CNN or a politician.''
MMathis, you have my empathy for sure. That was a terrible era of our history. I was contemplating my navel in the mountains while you were sweating it out in the jungles and I felt terrible about the way you were treated when you got home. Much as I am thankful for the freedoms we DO have, the gov sure is not as good as God as the latest VA horror stories show. This comment seems appropriate:
'' a blind eye to the state's evil, a false hope in using the state to accomplish the work of God'' ...


Mattrose - I love this, and put it on my FB page. Wonder if it will draw any comments:
'' and the reason that patriotism has found its way into the church... is because the Gospel hasn't been communicated as a message about another Kingdom. It has been shared as an individualized product [personal savior]. Many people want to serve a purpose greater than themselves, and if the church doesn't mention such a purpose (The Kingdom) then they're likely to turn elsewhere (their earthly nation).''
''When state persecution of the church comes in America, it will be because we finally found our voice in calling Americans away from idolatry of the state to the Kingdom of Christ, and people will be able to distinguish the followers of Christ from citizens of the US Government.''
I hope this would be the case. I do hear some say Christians are not fit to raise children because they teach their children 'fables' contained in the Bible - such as that God created the world and all that is in it - not scientific - huh!
"Anything you think you know about God that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question.” - anonymous

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