Separation of Church and state

The Church
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Jepne
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by Jepne » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:51 am

The purpose of the Church being separate from the state was so the state would not interfere with religion, demanding how or that we worship God. But it came to be interpreted (by the Supreme Court?) that there would be no Christian practice in public institutions.

In this day, if we had religious practices in schools etc. might we have to give equal representation to Islam? But what would that matter if we had a strong Christian witness!

About the Kingdom: For years, I listened to conservative radio. I am in shock now as I consider how heavily invested my heart was in how this last presidential election would turn out. The morning after, I began to cry, and sob, and fortunately, began to pray in tongues. After a while, I felt a tangible shift in my head - from my heart's concern about the leadership of the US government, to the Kingdom of God.

I turned on conservative radio a couple of times since, but could never listen more than a few minutes. It's over.
"Anything you think you know about God that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question.” - anonymous

MMathis
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by MMathis » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:48 am

Jepne

If you read on the subject, most founders believed very much that the Christian Church should be active in how this country was to be governed. They did however, want the government to stay out of the Church.

I too think it is pretty much over for the country.
Last edited by MMathis on Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MMathis
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Jepne
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by Jepne » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:19 pm

Hi MMathis - I did not mean that I thought it was 'over' for the US - I meant it is over for me - my heart's first cry is now more truly for the Kingdom of God to come, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." I vote, and I pray, but the people have spoken, they can have their Barabbas - the line is ever more clearly drawn in the sand. Bless you.
"Anything you think you know about God that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question.” - anonymous

schoel
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by schoel » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:54 pm

MMathis wrote: If you read on the subject, most founders believed very much that the Christian Church should be active in how this country was to be governed. The did however, want the government to stay out of the Church.
Since we follow Christ alone and not the "founding fathers" of the US government, perhaps Christians in America should ask the following questions?

- Does Jesus want want His followers to fight to control an earthly kingdom?
- Does the Kingdom of God grow through political coercion?
- When the church colludes with a political system, does history show that the political system becomes more Christ-like, or does the church become compromised?

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TheEditor
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by TheEditor » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:43 pm

Greetings,

The founders were principaly "deists". Take a gander at the Jefferson Bible. I would rather be a Christian in this country than any other one, but the reality is that the Western/Calvinist church has especially become wedded to the US. It is unfortunate, as it blurs the lines of allegiance. It's a knotty problem with no simple answers.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

schoel
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by schoel » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:41 pm

TheEditor wrote: I would rather be a Christian in this country than any other one...
While I agree it is preferable to follow Christ in this country from a persecution standpoint, statements from by brothers and sisters in areas of higher persecution seem to imply that they don't primarily wish for less suffering, but more boldness and passion. Here in the USA, Christians spend a lot of time thanking God (and soldiers) for their freedoms and praying for continued protection from persecution. I wonder if safety from persecution is as healthy for the church? Would I trade my safety and freedom for more passion, boldness and radical commitment to the Kingdom of God? Hard questions, no doubt.
TheEditor wrote:...but the reality is that the Western/Calvinist church has especially become wedded to the US. It is unfortunate, as it blurs the lines of allegiance. It's a knotty problem with no simple answers.
Can you expand on what you see as the knotty problem?
To me, it seems simple: Forsake the sinful kingdoms of this world and all that they offer, for the true Kingdom of Christ.

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TheEditor
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by TheEditor » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:58 pm

Hi Schoel,

Certainly. It's a "knotty" problem because humans are involved. :lol: When theological paradigms are involved and cognitive dissonance rears its head, then the decisions will always be difficult. As far as persecution goes; I spent years growing up a JW. From the secular world nuclear annihilation was a given, when would it happen was the only question. From my church base, persecution for Jehovah's people was always "just around the corner". Having gotten it from both ends growing up, I'm kinda burnt out on the whole "persecution" thing. Seems to me Jesus advised "fleeing" if you are being persecuted.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

Singalphile
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by Singalphile » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:54 pm

TheEditor wrote:The founders were principaly "deists".
As I understand it, the religious views of the "founding fathers" are pretty well known. If I recall correctly, only a few were deists. Too lazy to look it up right now, though. :)
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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TheEditor
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by TheEditor » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:48 am

Yeah. The "founders" for the most part were nominal. Several of the more notable ones were either deists or theistic rationalists. My contention is with the notion that there was some kind of over-arching Christianity that permeated everything. This is a myth. It's true, that many of the deists and theistic rationalists had great respect for Chrisitanity (albeit, perhaps expressed oddly, such as Jefferson's Bible, for instance), but this idea that has held sway in recent years among evangelicals of a certain stripe, you'd think John Macarthur was at the signing..... :lol:

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Jepne
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Re: Separation of Church and state

Post by Jepne » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:44 am

Great questions, Schoel - I posted them on my FB page without your name - please advise if this is not ok with you.

I added my own in the comments:

Should true followers of Jesus Christ seek the power of political coercion or should their reliance be solely on the Gospel to transform people's hearts and bring them to change their minds about how they are living?

Is the Gospel foremost enough in our lives to effect change in the world around us?
"Anything you think you know about God that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question.” - anonymous

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