Luke 21:31 - Kingdom of God is at hand

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ANDREW73
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Luke 21:31 - Kingdom of God is at hand

Post by ANDREW73 » Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:39 am

Hello,
This is my first post here. I am a dedicated listener and supporter of Steve Gregg and his ministry (past 2 years), who has brought me out of the pre-millenial, dispensational doctrine that I held to strongly for about 35 years. I can not begin to explain how grateful I am for this. I feel a veil has been lifted and so many questions answered because of that doctrine. Lots of "stuff" that never made sense to me even when "proof" text were used. Understanding the Bible in this new/old light has renewed my enthusiasm for studying the Bible and continuing to seek Biblical truth using the Bible alone.

I now believe that Christians/believers are currently in the Kingdom of God, as I believe the Bible states clearly, and it is not a future aspect we are still looking forward to. Every scripture I find in reference to the Kingdom, points to it being ushered in while Christ was on earth and fulfilled by/in Him.

The one passage I struggle with though in making it fit with this viewpoint is, Luke 21:31 - "So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand."

Here Jesus is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem which, of course, happened after His death, resurrection, and ascension. This verse says that the Kingdom of God would be "nigh at hand" after this event.

That leaves me to understand that the Kingdom of God, was still not fulfilled until sometime after the destruction of Jerusalem or perhaps we are still waiting for the fulfillment.

Can someone set me straight on this and clarify what I am reading here. I am sure it is not a contradictory statement, so I must be reading and understanding it incorrectly.

Thank you.

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Paidion
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Re: Luke 21:31 - Kingdom of God is at hand

Post by Paidion » Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:44 am

Every Kingdom consists of a king and his subjects.

To the Pharisees who asked Jesus when the Kingdom of Heaven was coming, Jesus replied that the Kingdom was in the midst of them. That Kingdom consisted of Jesus the King, and his disciples, the subjects.

Jesus' parables of the Kingdom indicate that the Kingdom is in stages. 1)Its beginning 2)Its growth and 3) its culmination. The culmination is yet to come.

If you are interested in this view of the kingdom, I can provide details using Jesus' Kingdom parables.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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ANDREW73
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Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:47 am

Re: Luke 21:31 - Kingdom of God is at hand

Post by ANDREW73 » Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:25 pm

Thank you. I am interested in your breakdown of scriptures that support that view. I am probably familiar with them, but just have not organized them in such a way to show past, present and future.

I understand the view of the kingdom being in stages since we have yet to see the culmination of the kingdom and we know the kingdom already here in another sense based on other thing Jesus said.

This statement, however, seems very definitive to me. He said that only after you see these things happen, then you can expect the nearness of Kingdom of God. I doubt he was referencing its completeness seen in His return. Was He possibly referencing the complete destruction of the old order/covenant, as seen by the Jews, of the temple, its system, and Jerusalem as the center of the Jewish religion?

What was changing about the nearness of the kingdom then compared to the nearness now? We are even nearer now to the fullness of the kingdom. What importance would that statement have to His followers then, especially if they already knew the kingdom was in their midst?

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Paidion
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Re: Luke 21:31 - Kingdom of God is at hand

Post by Paidion » Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:10 pm

Hi Andrew,
I think the prediction is about the culmination of the Kingdom.
Of course a full preterist would say it all happened in 70 A.D. including the coming of Christ, and a partial preterist would say it all happened in 70 A.D. excluding the coming of Christ. Here is the passage in its context:

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it,
22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.
23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.
24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26 people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
29 And he told them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees.
30 As soon as they come out in leaf, you see for yourselves and know that the summer is already near.
31 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near.
32 Truly, I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place.


Verses 21-24 is claimed by both forms of preterism to apply to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. I don't know how partial preterists justify assigning verses 25-27 to a future coming of Christ, although I once remember Steve Gregg writing that signs in the sun, moon, and stars, and the powers of the heavens being shaken, is symbolic language. But vs 27 declares that "THEN they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." So clearly people seeing Christ coming from the heavens is part of the same event, and cannot be sometime in our future. Full preterists at least seem consistent on this point, for they say that Christ returned in 70 A.D. However, if people saw Him returning at that time (as Jesus declared they would), there is absolutely no historic record of anyone having done so. However, full preterists come back with, "All who saw Him were raptured, and so no one else knew of his return." That won't do. For Rev 1:7 declares that EVERY eye shall see Him when He returns with the clouds, including those who pierced Him.

Futurists claim the entire passage is about events future to our time. The first part about Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, and let those inside the city depart, doesn't fit what happened historically in 70 A.D. There was war by the Jews to try to get independence, and there were various agreements with Rome, but when the Zealots decided on complete rebellion, the Roman army defeated the Jews. Jerusalem was well fortified, so Rome surrounded it, and kept it isolated so that no one could leave. Many starved, and some even ate their children. All this is recorded in the account of Josephus in "Wars of the Jews." But the period in which our Lord predicted that Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies, it will be possible for people to escape the city and "head for the hills."

So I think in verse 31, "So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near," the phrase "kingdom of God" refers to the culmination of the Kingdom that Jesus described in some of his Kingdom parables, for example Matt 13:47-50 in which Jesus describes the culmination of the Kingdom as a time in which the angels will come out and cast the wicked into the fiery furnace.

Where preterists think they have us futurists over a barrel, is verse 32:"Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place." It is assumed that "this generation" refers "The average period, generally considered to be about thirty years, in which children grow up, become adults, and have children of their own" or possibly "all people who are simultaneously alive." But that is not the only meaning of the word. Indeed, the Greek word "γενεα" (genea) literally means "that which has been begotten" and therefore "people of the same stock or family." Thus it is a term that our Lord used in describing the Jewish people of his day. He referred to them as "this generation."

For example:
But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions, and saying: ‘We played the flute for you, And you did not dance; We mourned to you, And you did not lament.’ For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ (Matthew 11:16-19)

Surely Jesus' reference to "this generation" was not a reference to all the people of the world who were his contemporaries, but to the Jewish people who, in general, would listen neither to John the Baptizer, nor to Jesus.

So I think that Jesus was affirming that the Jewish people would never be exterminated (Although Hitler and others have tried it) until all those things have taken place, including His return.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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