Church Authority

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steve
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Church Authority

Post by steve » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:47 pm

Here is an email interchange going on between a correspondent and me (he is somewhat drawn to the arguments of Roman Catholicism):
Steve,
I have a question about authority. Ultimately, if members of the church you go to, or even my church, have A disagreement, they go to the head pastor for the final decision. I guess you could call that decision binding. So then wouldn’t the ultimate authority of any protestant church be its head pastor? Just like the Catholics go to their priest, but really ultimately the pope for their final answer?

And then what obviously has happened in Protestant churches over the years, is once certain members don't like the pastors answer they either start their own church or go to a different church that agrees with them. Or a different church that agrees with their interpretation. So ultimately don't you need a Final earthly authority figure to avoid chaos? Like what has happened with the 30,000 or so Protestant churches since the reformation?
Nicolaus
Nicolaus,
My church does not have a head pastor—and neither did the churches in the New Testament. They had groups of men called elders, who served as teachers, but their opinions were not regarded as "final." Only Christ’s words were final. He is the Head of the church.

The Bible says that the ultimate teacher of every Christian is the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27). Teachers do what they can to make things clear, but they are not infallible. If your Protestant pastor requires everyone to agree with him, I would recommend finding a church where the leadership does not behave like cult leaders.
Steve
Steve,
Yes but wouldn't that be contradictory to what Jesus said....if there's a dispute and it can't be resolved among the few men, take it to the church. And if they don't agree with the churches decision you cast them out and treat them like pagans or tax collectors. This sounds like a binding decision. If you don't agree you're cast out.
Nicolaus
Nicolaus,
"The church" is the congregation, or the community of Christians. It is not synonymous with a particular leader in the group. If there was a big boss in the group who could make such decisions on his own, then there would not be any need to take the matter before the whole church. Why bother so many people about it? The leader could simply be approached privately so that he could issue an edict. We know of only one church in the New Testament that had a cultic leader like that, “who loves to have the preeminence” (3 John 9). This was a bad situation.

In the passage to which you refer (Matt.18:15-17), the matters that are to be taken before the church are not theological differences between members. Jesus' instructions are addressed to a case wherein "your brother sins against you" (Matt.18:15). If a man has an interpretation of scripture different from mine, how is he sinning against me? Does he owe it to me to agree with me? I don't think so.

You wrote:
"Ultimately, if members of the church you go to, or even my church, have a disagreement, they go to the head pastor for the final decision. I guess you could call that decision binding...Once certain members don't like the pastor’s answer they either start their own church or go to a different church that agrees with them. Or a different church that agrees with their interpretation."

I would not attend such a church as you describe, where the "head pastor" makes all the decisions to settle disputes. Who authorized him to be the big boss? Certainly not God (see Matt.20:25-27). And if the church does run this way, and people cannot abide by his decisions, what better thing is left for people of conscience to do than to start or find a group that lacks such dictatorial leadership? If a pastor insists on being the brains of the whole operation, then he has made himself the "head" of the church. If so, that organization is not Christ's church, where He alone is the "Head" (Eph.1:22-23).

I think you are assuming that Christians all have an obligation to see everything the same way. This is flatly denied in scripture (Rom.14:5). You may be seeing the church as an institution that is to be characterized by monolithic agreement. The Bible sees the church as a family. Families are not characterized by total homogeneity of opinions, but by unconditional love (John 13:35). In Christ's church, there are no bosses who teach everyone what they must think about everything (1 John 2:27). There are only brothers and sisters (Matt.23:8-11).

Blessings!

Steve

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Paidion
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Re: Church Authority

Post by Paidion » Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:51 pm

The apostles established overseers (also called "elders") in the churches. They definitely had authority. The writer of Hebrews recognized that there were those who "ruled over" the brethren to whom he was writing. He asked them to obey those "rulers":

Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. (Hebrews 13:7)

Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you. (Hebrews 13:17)


Paul recognized overseers who were to shepherd the flock: Acts 20:28, Philippians 1:1.

I fully agree with you, Steve that this submission to the overseers was not about theological beliefs. It was about Christian living. Also, as you say, there were several elders in each local assembly. Disagreement about philosophical and/or theological issues should not divide disciples of Christ. Disagreement about living the Christian life sometimes must divide them, though the overseers, and others in the body, should make every effort first to help wrongdoers to understand righteous living.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Jim
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Re: Church Authority

Post by Jim » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:15 am

I fully agree with you, Steve that this submission to the overseers was not about theological beliefs. It was about Christian living.
You may or may not agree with what I am about to say. History has shown that even small theological heresies can have a dramatic effect on how a person guides the healing and transformation of those they have been given charge over. If piety is the goal, we don't need Christianity at all. If Theosis is the goal then proper guidance is of the utmost importance. Someone who can come along side of you and help you heal, to see prelest taking hold or having hold of a person. An example would be a wrong understanding of the Trinity. The Trinity is community, it is the uncreated Church for example. Taking the Church out of the Trinity creates a sense of individualism that is the path of the fall, instead of unity and community which is the path, and the means of salvation. We, for example are saved as a community, not as individuals. That is just one example. Another is the drift of Rome from the Church and the disaster that has created in western conscious.
Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

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dwight92070
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Re: Church Authority

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:10 am

Steve,

I don't see how you can state so authoritatively that the early churches were led by a group of elders, as opposed to one pastor. Where does the Bible say that?

Dwight

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Homer
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Re: Church Authority

Post by Homer » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:52 pm

Dwight,

I know you addressed Steve, hope he doesn't mind my interjection.

"Pastor" is an unfortunate translation. There is no such office as one man ruler over a church in the New Testament. Notice Ephesians 4:11:

And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

Pastors and teachers are plural, both terms can apply to the same persons, pastor (Greek poimen) IMO should have been translated "shepherd", the literal meaning. If the shepherds here are not the elders then it is curious why they are not mentioned along with evangelists and others.

Note 1 Peter 5:1-2

Peter 5:1-2 (NASB)

5. Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 2. shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;

Here the elders (plural) are instructed by Peter to shepherd the flock. Here "shepherd" is the Greek poimanate, the verbal form of poimen in Ephesians 4:11.

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steve
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Re: Church Authority

Post by steve » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:59 pm

Dwight,

First, there is no mention in scripture of any church having an individual called a "pastor."

Second, the word "elder" (presbyter) and the word "bishop/overseer" (episkopos) are the terms used for the leaders of local churches—and those terms are used interchangeably (see Titus 1:5, 7; Acts 20:17:28) and those in that position are commanded to pastor (that is, "shepherd") the churches (Acts 20:17, 28 / 1 Pet.5:2). Thus the Pastors" (or, more accurately, "shepherds") spoken of in Ephesians 4:11 refer to the elders of the churches.

Third, each local church was served by multiple elders (Acts 14:23; 15:6 / Phil.1:1 / James 5:14). The only one-man leadership scenario mentioned in a church was that in which a tyrant named Diotrophes "loved to have the preeminence" (3 John 9).

Thus, there is no teaching in the scripture that an individual congregation will have an individual pastor. The pastoral ministry was committed to a group of qualified men who were called elders or overseers.

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dwight92070
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Re: Church Authority

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:30 pm

Homer,

I agree with you that "pastors" in Eph. 4:11 might have been better translated "shepherds". I also agree with you that the "pastor" or the "shepherd" might be the same person as the "teacher". But whether they are 2 offices or just one, notice they are separate offices from the first 3. In other words, we know that the apostles, the prophets, and the evangelists did shepherd and teach the flock to a certain degree
from time to time, but that was not their primary calling. They were often travelling, so they could not stay with the local flock indefinitely. The shepherd, on the other hand, would stay with the flock and never leave it, as any good shepherd would. The shepherd (or pastor or elder) was called to do the day to day "dirty work" of continual feeding and nurturing the flock. Then whenever an apostle or prophet or evangelist came to town, the good shepherd would want his people to benefit from their ministries as well.

1 Peter 5:1-2 Of course Peter is addressing the elders (plural) here. He is not just speaking to just one church. He is very likely addressing hundreds and maybe thousands of local church congregations. 1 Peter 1:1 tells us he is speaking to Christians in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. So it is very likely that he is addressing each and every shepherd (singular) from all of those churches, but he is addressing them as a group, so he calls them "elders" (plural).

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dwight92070
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Re: Church Authority

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:47 am

[quote="steve"]

Third, each local church was served by multiple elders (Acts 14:23; 15:6 / Phil.1:1 / James 5:14).

(Dwight) In all 4 of these verses, it is not clear at all to me that it refers to multiple elders for each local church. Rather, it appears to be speaking of individual elders of many local churches. Acts 14:23 Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for each local church in Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch. Acts 15:6 The elders from each local church in Jerusalem and the apostles came together here. Phil.1:1 Paul and Timothy wrote to all the saints in Philippi, including the overseers of all the local churches or we could say to each overseer of each local church. James 5:14 The same Greek word for "elders" here was translated "elder" in 3 other places in the New Testament. Also, where the KJV says "and let THEM pray over him", well, the Greek word from which THEM (846 in the Strong's concordance) is the translation, literally means "self" or "he, she, or it", none of which are plural.

(Steve) The only one-man leadership scenario mentioned in a church was that in which a tyrant named Diotrophes "loved to have the preeminence" (3 John 9).

(Dwight) Just because one man in a church "loved to have the preeminence" does not mean that every one-man scenario will have the same outcome. Nor is there any guarantee that there will not be a similar "bad apple" in a church with multiple elders.

(Dwight) Jesus told Peter to "shepherd His sheep" shortly before He ascended. Peter was to lead His sheep. Jesus did not tell the other apostles to do that. They were to follow Jesus, yes, but they were also to submit to Peter's leadership. By the way, they already were doing that. Peter said, "I'm going fishing." They said, "We'll go with you." Peter is always listed first in the 4 lists of the apostles. One of the lists actually says, "First, Simon Peter, ..." Peter did not have the attitude of loving to have the preeminence.

James made the final decision regarding the dispute about Gentiles needing to be circumcised, etc. It appears quite obvious that he was the leader of the church in Jerusalem, or least of this council of Christians. Immediately after James made his judgment, the whole church created a letter with James' instructions in it and even said that this was the leading of the Holy Spirit and them in verse 28.

Paul told Timothy that a prospective elder must manage his own household well, or he will not take care of the church of God. The church is also called a household in the Bible.

Husbands are the leaders of their families, even though Jesus is their leader. There cannot be 2 earthly leaders with the same authority in families.

Steve, imagine if another brother was leading your ministry with you, having the same say-so as you do regarding decisions involving your radio stations and travel, etc. I know, your ministry is not a church, but neither is a single family a church, yet both must have one person with the final say, yet still led by the Holy Spirit.

Nature itself teaches us that there is almost always an animal who does have the highest rank. Animals fight for that position. Someone has well said, "Anything with two heads is a monster."

Dwight

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dwight92070
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Re: Church Authority

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:14 pm

Matthew 25:45 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when He comes. Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all His possessions."

Who is this faithful and sensible slave whom Jesus put in charge of his church? He is called a shepherd or a pastor or an elder or an overseer. He gives the church their spiritual nourishment at the proper time. Jesus does not say here that He puts 2 or 3 or 4 faithful slaves in charge of His household. Only one can be in charge of one household. If others are called to be in charge, God will lead them to another portion of His household.

If the shepherds are faithful with the authority God has given them here on earth, then there will come a day when He will say to them: "Well done, good slave, because you have been faithful in a very little thing, you are to be in authority over ten cities?" Luke 19:17

How is it possible that God would reward a faithful shepherd with the good reward of being in authority over ten cities in the next life, but if he is in authority over a small portion of the body of Christ here in this life, it is a bad thing?

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Homer
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Re: Church Authority

Post by Homer » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:55 pm

Hi Dwight,

You wrote:
James 5:14 The same Greek word for "elders" here was translated "elder" in 3 other places in the New Testament. Also, where the KJV says "and let THEM pray over him", well, the Greek word from which THEM (846 in the Strong's concordance) is the translation, literally means "self" or "he, she, or it", none of which are plural.
The Greek word for elders in this place is presbuteros and the form of the word is masculine plural. There is no THEM in the Greek. Where our English translators have inserted "them" we find is the Greek word proseuchomai and it is an aorist imperative middle, a simple command to pray.
James made the final decision regarding the dispute about Gentiles needing to be circumcised, etc. It appears quite obvious that he was the leader of the church in Jerusalem, or least of this council of Christians. Immediately after James made his judgment, the whole church created a letter with James' instructions in it and even said that this was the leading of the Holy Spirit and them in verse 28.


The council at Jerusalem provides a fine example of decision making in the church. It was far from a one-man decision as you suppose. We see both sides presented their arguments, Peter spoke, Paul and Barnabas spoke, the Pharisees spoke, all apparently before the whole church at Jerusalem (Acts 15:4), and then James gave his judgement in the matter. "Judgement" is here krino which can refer to no more than an opinion, although it was a wise opinion. Then we find concurrence in James' opinion by the Apostles, Elders, and the whole church. We would do well to follow this model today. Think of it - arguably the most important decision in the history of the church discussed and resolved before the entire congregation!

I am curious why you would argue for the preeminence of Peter and then say James made this great decision in Peter's presence.

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