Futurist application of Matthew 24 to the end times

[TheEditor]

Hi Robby,

I think for myself, and I presume most of us here, who are not Full Preterists, it isn't so much that you take the "time statements" literally, but that you are a bit capricious about the other aspects of the prophecy, as Homer noted, which you do NOT take literally. I am also wondering about something else; Why the reluctance to believe in addition to a literal, soon-after-uttered fulfillment of Jesus' words, there could also be a future, larger fulfillment? Surely you are aware that most Messianic prophecies were uttered hundreds of years before their fulfillment, and yet they did have a fulfillment in the lifetime of the prophets that spoke them? Consider all of the prophecies of Isaiah that we take for granted are fufilled in Jesus, and yet the "time stamp" of his prophecies were within that "generation". Just wondering...

Regards, Brenden.

[robbyyoung]

Hi Brenden,

I'm at work and it's difficult to type out replies on this phone, which I hate , but I'll respond later.

God bless


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Robby Young
U.S. Army Retired

[robbyyoung]

Hi Robby,

I think for myself, and I presume most of us here, who are not Full Preterists, it isn't so much that you take the "time statements" literally, but that you are a bit capricious about the other aspects of the prophecy, as Homer noted, which you do NOT take literally. I am also wondering about something else; Why the reluctance to believe in addition to a literal, soon-after-uttered fulfillment of Jesus' words, there could also be a future, larger fulfillment? Surely you are aware that most Messianic prophecies were uttered hundreds of years before their fulfillment, and yet they did have a fulfillment in the lifetime of the prophets that spoke them? Consider all of the prophecies of Isaiah that we take for granted are fufilled in Jesus, and yet the "time stamp" of his prophecies were within that "generation". Just wondering...

Regards, Brenden.

it isn't so much that you take the "time statements" literally, but that you are a bit capricious about the other aspects of the prophecy, as Homer noted, which you do NOT take literally.

Precedence Brenden. Time Statements in prophecy NEVER aludes to a nonsensical or CAPRICIOUS meaning to the Prophets. The O.T. is THE SHADOW or TYPE. The N.T. Prophets, Yeshua being The Chief Prophet, which ended ALL inspirational writing and interpretations of the O.T. prophecies, is THE ANTI-TYPE. Therefore, what the N.T. Writers spoke and revealed, as truth and correct understanding, HAS NO FURTHER FULFILLMENT. NO ONE can go behind them to undermine their FINAL WORD or CORRECT interpretation. Yeshua and HIS kingdom message IS NOT A SHADOW OR TYPE for any future REAL ANTI-TYPE to come. This screams foul of everything Yeshua said concerning being the fulfillment of ALL that the Prophets and The Law revealed concerning HIM. The Revelation was given once, and interpreted by inspired men, once, for the time was at hand. Post 70AD, we have NO MORE inspired Word to add or Prophets to set the record straight. Why? Because it over, and YAHWEH accomplished what HE set out to do, just as the O.T. pattern shows us, with the use of Prophets before judgement comes.

Precedence for METAPHORS, SIMILE, AND SYMBOLOGY is set for us in the O.T., the same source the N.T. Writers drew from. Capricious is a very awkward description in a discussion concerning METAPHORS and SYMBOLISM which carries over from the O.T. into the NEW. I'm not picking and choosing by whim or capri, I'm using O.T. precedence. On the other hand, claims made against prophetic time statements to mean other than a literal reading, is VERY CAPRICIOUS and without PRECEDENCE!

Why the reluctance to believe in addition to a literal, soon-after-uttered fulfillment of Jesus' words, there could also be a future, larger fulfillment?

Types and Anti-Type is all the reason you need to debunk any "larger fulfillment". Yeshua's work WILL NEVER be a "type or shadow", either it was done when He said it would be or HE's a FALSE PROPHET along with HIS deluded DISCIPLES. Even C.S. Lewis understood this to a certain extent.

Surely you are aware that most Messianic prophecies were uttered hundreds of years before their fulfillment, and yet they did have a fulfillment in the lifetime of the prophets that spoke them?

Exactly! They were fulfilled in the lifetime of the people the prophecy was directed towards. But the ANTI-TYPE was yet to come, and HE did come with a message directed at HIS audience. And YES, just as the pattern shows, The Prophet came before the judgement, it was near, completed, and now history!

Consider all of the prophecies of Isaiah that we take for granted are fufilled in Jesus, and yet the "time stamp" of his prophecies were within that "generation". Just wondering...

These prophecies had NO TIME STATEMENTS attached to them as being NEAR, FAR, or PRESENT. Those that do, the timing is given within the prophecy itself. It's the prophecy itself, which contains time statements, that is relevant to our discussion. Not general truths that denote NO SUCH THING!

As always, God Bless.

[TheEditor]

Hi Robby,

Thank you for your succinct answers. But I think perhaps you either misunderstood me, or I didn't make myself clear enough. Let's just take Isaiah 7, for example. Nowhere in the prophecy is there an indication that anything would take place beyond the life of the hearers. The fulfillment was to take place "before the boy should know to choose right from wrong", so, by Jewish reckoning this would be what, 12 years? from the time the "vigin gave birth". And yet, hundreds of years later, we see, as you noted generally, that there was a greater fulfillment.

Now then, in Jesus' role as a "prophet" what prevents His words from carrying meaning beyond the first century fulfillment? I'm not saying they do, let me be clear. But what prevents it? Preterist reasoning? The need for it not to be so?

Regards, Brenden.

[Homer]

Hi Robby,

Types and Anti-Type is all the reason you need to debunk any "larger fulfillment". Yeshua's work WILL NEVER be a "type or shadow", either it was done when He said it would be or HE's a FALSE PROPHET along with HIS deluded DISCIPLES

.

That's pretty strong statement there. Would it be your position that nothing Jesus has done could ever be a type regarding something greater He might do at a later point in time? That is what you are saying, if I do not misunderstand you. I would think that some, at least, of His miracles were types of greater things.

[robbyyoung]

Hi Robby,

Thank you for your succinct answers. But I think perhaps you either misunderstood me, or I didn't make myself clear enough. Let's just take Isaiah 7, for example. Nowhere in the prophecy is there an indication that anything would take place beyond the life of the hearers. The fulfillment was to take place "before the boy should know to choose right from wrong", so, by Jewish reckoning this would be what, 12 years? from the time the "vigin gave birth". And yet, hundreds of years later, we see, as you noted generally, that there was a greater fulfillment.

Now then, in Jesus' role as a "prophet" what prevents His words from carrying meaning beyond the first century fulfillment? I'm not saying they do, let me be clear. But what prevents it? Preterist reasoning? The need for it not to be so?

Regards, Brenden.

Hi Brenden,

Let's just take Isaiah 7, for example. Nowhere in the prophecy is there an indication that anything would take place beyond the life of the hearers.

Correct.

The fulfillment was to take place "before the boy should know to choose right from wrong", so, by Jewish reckoning this would be what, 12 years? from the time the "vigin gave birth".

Correct.

And yet, hundreds of years later, we see, as you noted generally, that there was a greater fulfillment.

Correct.

Yeshua came to fulfill ALL TYPES and SHADOWS. The only way to know this is by a N.T. Prophet or Angel applying the TYPE or SHADOW to "THE ANTI-TYPE". Brenden, an Anti-Type ends it, and has NO further meaning! There is no greater fulfillment to the Anti-Type or it's NOT the Anti-Type, but simply a Type or Shadow. Yeshua is The Anti-Type, along with His Kingdom and complete message, which ended at the end of the age in 70AD.

Now then, in Jesus' role as a "prophet" what prevents His words from carrying meaning beyond the first century fulfillment? I'm not saying they do, let me be clear. But what prevents it? Preterist reasoning? The need for it not to be so?

Because Yeshua and HIS message WAS NOT a Type or Shadow to HIS audience, HIS generation, but in-fact was the ANTI-TYPE and we are the product of that fulfillment.

The time statements and audience relevance in the 1st Century are irrefutable. To turn Yeshua or HIS message/kingdom into a TYPE or SHADOW to satisfy a paradigm is error. The term, "Greater Fulfillment" in regards to N.T. Prophecy is extreme error. Remember, we have no more Prophets, Inspired Writing, Visions, Dreams, or another gospel. Yet we have been taught that all this destruction and judgement is coming our way and The Real Anti-Type to help us understand. This Contradicts the things that were to cease in the 1st Century!

Again Brenden, I'm sticking with what was told to the 1st Century Believers. Nothing but solid ground there. Understanding "the how" questions concerning how these things were fulfilled is NOT PRIMARY, believing they happened IS. Why? Because the text testifies to that audience that it's so.

This is my position. You and others share a different position. We are still Brethren and I hope whatever we believe, we are faithful to see it through to the end. Eschatology is just one of many differences of opinion and position.

God Bless.

[robbyyoung]

Hi Robby,

Types and Anti-Type is all the reason you need to debunk any "larger fulfillment". Yeshua's work WILL NEVER be a "type or shadow", either it was done when He said it would be or HE's a FALSE PROPHET along with HIS deluded DISCIPLES

.

That's pretty strong statement there. Would it be your position that nothing Jesus has done could ever be a type regarding something greater He might do at a later point in time? That is what you are saying, if I do not misunderstand you. I would think that some, at least, of His miracles were types of greater things.

Hi Homer,

Work (e.g. Prophecy). That's the context I'm using it in. Yet, all works had their fulfillment at the end of the age (70AD). Nothing greater follows. But you do bring up a good point concerning "The already but not yet" doctrine, the transitioning period from Old to New Covenant.

God Bless.

[Homer]

Robby,

Jesus fed the 5,000 and then went on to inform them He is the true bread of life. His miracle in feeding physical food which sustains physical life points to the greater eternal life, a spiritual reality, which is sustained by the bread (Jesus) that came down from heaven. And He restored physical sight to the blind which is a type, I would think, of His continuing to restore spiritual sight to those blind to the truth. And I could go on, but that is enough to make the point. Likewise the judgment of Jerusalem can also be seen as a type of greater judgment to come, as Brenden has pointed out.

[robbyyoung]

Robby,

Jesus fed the 5,000 and then went on to inform them He is the true bread of life. His miracle in feeding physical food which sustains physical life points to the greater eternal life, a spiritual reality, which is sustained by the bread (Jesus) that came down from heaven. And He restored physical sight to the blind which is a type, I would think, of His continuing to restore spiritual sight to those blind to the truth. And I could go on, but that is enough to make the point. Likewise the judgment of Jerusalem can also be seen as a type of greater judgment to come, as Brenden has pointed out.

Hi Homer,

I appreciate the dialogue and effort to challenge my understanding, iron sharpens iron. May we both find common ground in the truth of the matter in the end.

Homer, "at the end of the age", consummation of what Yeshua taught, performed, and prophesied reached its fulfillment. You've mentioned some things that were "Spiritually", the greater, already taking place in the early part of Yeshua's ministry. These realities are the forerunner of the New Heaven and Earth, Kingdom of God, and New Jerusalem, such as:

> Resurrection from death to life (Physical [sign] / Spiritual [reality])
> Eating the Bread of Life (Physical [sign] / Spiritual [reality])
> The blind receiving sight (Physical [sign] / Spiritual [reality])
> The sick healed (Physical [sign] / Spiritual [reality])

As you said, "I could go on".

Now, in all these blessed truths, "The Spiritual" aspect that was then ALREADY "at work", was "the greater fulfillment". All these things were consummated at the end of the age, which satisfied the "NOT YET". There is NO greater fulfillment to the "Spiritual" realities just noted. For YAHWEH, first, deals with the physical, then applies the spiritual. There is nothing greater than "The Gospel" message which:

> Raises the dead to eternal life
> Satisfies those who hunger and thirst after righteousness
> Lights up the darkness
> Heals the sin sick soul

Etc, etc...

At the end of the age, these spiritual realities simply continues without end. This is why most of the physical manifestations of the Kingdom disappeared at the end of the age, to be consumed by the spiritual reality, which was "The Greater". Praise be to YAHWEH, The Father, that we, as Priests in the New Covenant are endowed with every physical manifestation of The Gospel, packaged for us in The Greater reality, "The Spiritual". As we proclaim The Everlasting Gospel, WE, in fact:

> Raise the dead to eternal life
> Satisfy those who hunger and thirst after righteousness
> Light up the darkness
> Heal the sin sick soul

This is the significance of understanding the consummation of end time events in the 1st Century. The promises of the New Covenant, The New Heaven and Earth, The New Jerusalem and Our Priesthood has arrived! We are NOT to be looking back to the PHYSICAL when the SPIRITUAL is THE GREATER and FINAL revelation.

With this, I continue to stand with the NT Writers and their testimony concerning ALL THESE THINGS as being completed in their generation, i.e. at the destruction of The Temple, which happened in 70AD.

God Bless.

[dizerner]

The Didache appears to be a very old Christian document that interprets end time passages as yet to be fulfilled:

CHAPTER 16

Warning that the end is at hand

1 "Watch" over your life: "let your lamps" be not quenched "and your loins" be not ungirded, but be "ready," for ye know not "the hour in which our Lord cometh." 2 But be frequently gathered together seeking the things which are profitable for your souls, for the whole time of your faith shall not profit you except ye be found perfect at the last time; 3 for in the last days the false prophets and the corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall change to hate; 4 for as lawlessness increaseth they shall hate one another and persecute and betray, and then shall appear the deceiver of the world as a Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders and the earth shall be given over into his hands and he shall commit iniquities which have never been since the world began.

5 Then shall the creation of mankind come to the fiery trial and "many shall be offended" and be lost, but "they who endure" in their faith "shall be saved" by the curse itself. 6 And "then shall appear the signs" of the truth. First the sign spread out in Heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead: 7 but not of all the dead, but as it was said, "The Lord shall come and all his saints with him." 8 Then shall the world "see the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven."

Amazingly enough, this is how I would formulate my own view of the end times from Scripture today in the year 2015, a beautifully synthesized compilation of end time admonitions from a document dated perhaps prior 100 A.D. And this is how I'd exactly read the Scriptures in a straight-forward and intuitive manner today, despite hundreds of years of doctrinal development. It's so odd how often I'm told "Christians never believed this or that until this or that person started this or that doctrine in this or that year," when really, any person taking their Bible and reading it, can read this message.