Regarding the numbering of the beast of Revelation 13:18

[canada]

Brother Paidion, earlier you said in part … “I think that the number 666 is to be calculated with Greek characters as did Iranaeus (120-202 A.D.)
He offered several Greek names which added to 666, but indicated that these were mere suggestions and that no one would know until the time came for the man of sin to be revealed to the world.” (my bold)

You know my reason for rejecting Greek (and Hebrew) is because of their high numeric values (1-400 and 1-800) enabling very short names (Joe Bob John Doe Simon etc) to sum in the area of 600 to 1100 and felt this to be a very poor identifier.

In that you are a futurist, over the years, what suspects did you think to be “biblical” and what success did you have using Iranaeus’ numeric system of Greek?

I did not think that people like Hitler, Stalin, Kissinger, Ronald Reagan etc. fit the biblical description, so homed in on Roman Catholics because of the “mark” that I felt identified them, and an “image” associated with Peter and the Church of Rome.

It did not take me long to examine the “man from Poland” and had almost immediate success regarding the number … how about you?

I was a futurist for ten years so likely had similar thoughts as you at one time. Do you think the “mark” to be a computer chip or some similar identifier as claimed by many futurists?

How about the image? I am ashamed to admit it, but I actually believed this seminary professor and people like Hal Lindsay for several years!

Professor J. Dwight Pentecost of the Dallas Theological Seminary had this to say about the “speaking image” of the beast.

“Now I don’t profess to be able to explain to you how this false prophet can make this image of the Beast speak, whether he does it electronically,or by ventriloquism, or by some satanic marvel, but I know that here is something so awesome that when the world sees this dead and lifeless image begin to give commands, they fall down before it as though it had come from Almighty God Himself … … … “
Prophecy For Today pg 117.

Makes my understanding of the “speaking image” being each and every “papal peter” that dies and yet comes back to life and has eyes and a mouth and can speak … pretty tame doesn’t it?

You wouldn’t sell many copies with my drab description eh!

[Singalphile]

Hi, canada. So would you put your view in the category of historicism? ... or something else? Thanks in advance.

[Paidion]

Hi Canada,

Paidion from Canada writing here!

In that you are a futurist, over the years, what suspects did you think to be “biblical” and what success did you have using Iranaeus’ numeric system of Greek?

In that I am a futurist, I have no suspects, as the Antichrist as He is described in scripture has not yet appeared. Indeed He will hate the Roman harlot (which I think may be the future political Rome, not the Roman Catholic Church). If the Antichrist is some RC pope, and the harlot is the RC church then the Antichrist hates his own church!

When there are indications that the Antichrist as described in scripture becomes known in the world, then I will check out his name in the Greek language if I am still here. In my opinion, there will first come into being a world government which will offer peace to the world (first white horse of Revelation), but it will be short-lived. War will follow (second red horse) and famine will follow that (third black horse) and finally death (fourth pale green horse). It will be then that the Antichrist will arise and appear to have all the answers to man's problems even exhibiting miracles. So the whole world will follow after him.

So that is my concept of end events just prior to Messiah's coming. But I don't claim to know that this will be the case. If people repent, it may not happen at all.
According to the author of the book of Jonah, when the Ninevites repented, God changed his mind and didn't bring upon the people the disaster which He had intended to bring upon them.

[canada]

I know where you are coming from Paidion as I was a futurist myself for ten years. However, I do grow weary of hearing those who continue to tell us … “what is going to happen”.

Where are those serious students of prophecy who recognized what has come to pass? I give credit to those partial preterists that fully understood what did come to pass in 70 AD and agree with much of their findings even though not being a partial preterist myself.

Yes, Singalphile, I was a futurist, now basically an historicist, and my son-in-grace pastors a very conservative Reformed church that is partial preterist in their interpretive understanding.

The Hal Lindsays of this world have published a lot of paper … but it is all smoke and mirrors, until, if ever, it comes to pass.

My heroes are men like:

Matthew Henry
Albert Barnes
Charles Spurgeon
Adam Clark
John Foxe
Gratton Guinness
E.B. Elliott
John Calvin
Uriah Smith
Philip Mauro
Isaac Newton

They and the saints and martyrs of the Reformation knew who the beast of Revelation was. They may not have fully understood what the “mark” of the beast was at that time, or what the “image” of the beast was, but they clearly understood who the beast was.

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[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[canada]

Hello dizerner ... how could you possibly make the statement you did?
"Since when did the Pope "oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God"... ...
I am referring to the papal claims below these numeric examples.
There are many more but surely these should be sufficient to make the point.

It is common knowledge that the original six characters of Roman numbers sum at 666.

It is denied by Rome, but it has been claimed (by eye witness) that at one time the words “Vicarius Filii Dei appeared on the papal mitre … vicarious, substituting for, or in place of Christ.

The Roman numerals for VICARIUS FILII DEI = 666
The Roman numbers for DUX CLERI = 666.
Translated, this means “Captain of the Clergy”

The Hebrew gematria for ROMIITH = 666 … means “Roman Kingdom”
The Hebrew gematria for ROMITI = 666 … means the “Roman man”

The Greek gematria (isophezia) for LATEINOS = 666 … the Latin speaking man.

The ancient Greek for “The Latin Kingdom” is HE LATINE BASILEIA = 666
The ancient Greek for “Italian Church” is ITALIKA EKKLESIA = 666
(Strong’s G1577)

The ancient Greek for this word … APOSTATES = 666

“Stigma” is a now obsolete Greek character, but it appears in Revelation 13:18 to give the value 666 (chi xi stigma … Strong’s G5516)
This information from an SDA site.

According to Webster’s Dictionary, this sign is placed before the names of popes.

“And call no man your father upon the earth; for one is your Father, which is in heaven.” Matt 23:9.

A doctrine of Romanism declares it’s priests to be called “Father” and it’s pope to be called the “Holy Father” upon the earth.
Either Rome or the Bible must be wrong.

The word “vicarious” means “in place of” or “instead of”. Each pope claims to be the “Vicar of Christ” … he claims to be Christ on earth.

The following are documented statements:

“The Pope is of so great dignity, and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God.” Ferrasis Ecclesiastical Dictionary.

“The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth”. Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous.”

“The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth … by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by on one, God himself on earth.” Quoted in the New York Catechism.

“To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical.” Roman Canon Law of 1685.

Father A. Pereira says: “It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title ‘Lord God the Pope’ for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII.

Pope Nicholas I declared: “the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man.” Labb IX Dist,:96 Can.7, Satis Evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para.

“The supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff, Union of minds, therefore, requires … complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself.” Leo VIII “On The Chief duties of Christians As Citizens.” Encyclical letter 1890.

“The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh.” Catholic National July 1895.

“We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII Encyclical letter of June 20, 1894.

After reading these blasphemous papal claims, would it not be reasonable for the student of prophecy to associate them with II Thess 2:3-4 ?

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

To others reading this post, I close with a suggestion. If you do not have a copy of Foxe’s Book of Martyrs, buy one. If you can get through a dozen or so pages without your eyes welling up in tears … you are one hard hearted believer.

This book was (and likely still is) on the “forbidden” list for Roman Catholics, along with Gibbon’s “The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire”. At one time, even the Bible was a prohibited book for “Joe Blow” Roman Catholic !

May all glory power and honor be unto our God, and not unto a Pope.

[Paidion]

“And call no man your father upon the earth; for one is your Father, which is in heaven.” Matt 23:9.

A doctrine of Romanism declares it’s priests to be called “Father” and it’s pope to be called the “Holy Father” upon the earth.
Either Rome or the Bible must be wrong.

Do you suppose that Onesimus may have called Paul "Father"?

I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I became in my imprisonment. (Philemon 1:10)

[canada]

So you see no connection between the statement "call no man father upon the earth" and the RC calling their priests Father and the pope Holy Father?

If so, that would be one large difference between how a futurist views the Bible and prophecy and an historicist.

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[canada]

dizerner ... are you a futurist, full preterist or partial preterist? Have you studied all three positions?
Paidion ... I am surprised that you accepted that Greek was the gematria to be used and yet you never attempted it your self. If you had, I think you may have understood why I rejected it.

POPE GOD ON EARTH

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that HE AS GOD sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. II Thess 2:3-4

The Popes (literally) claim to be "God on earth”.

All powers, titles, glory and honour bestowed upon any one pope belongs to all popes.

All these claims have been incessantly and universally urged all down the centuries by the popes of Rome, and are still advanced, as boldly as ever, in official decretals, bulls, extravagants, decisions of canonists, sentences of judges, books, catechisms, sermons, and treatises of all kinds. There is no mistaking what they amount to.

The Pope claims Divine inspiration, his words are to be received as the words of God; no laws can bind him, he is supreme over all, the very Scriptures derive their authority from him.

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."
Catholic National July 1895

"The Pope is the Supreme Judge of the law of the land ... He is the viceregent of Christ, and is not only a priest forever, but also King of kings and Lord of lords". La Civilta Cattolica, March 18 1871

"The Roman Pontiff judges all men, but is judged by no one. We declare, assert, define and pronounce: To be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature altogether necessary for salvation ... That which was spoken of Christ 'thou hast subdued all things under His feet', may well seem verified in me ... I have the authority of the King of kings.

I am all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the Vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do all that God can do, what therefore, can you make of me but God." Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam

By using this title Vicar of God, that is to say he is in place of God, for that is the meaning of vicar or vicarious.

"We define that the Holy Apostolic See (Vatican) and the Roman Pontiff hold the primacy over the whole world."
A decree of the Council of Trent, quoted in Philippe Labbe and Gabriel Cossart, "The Most Holy Councils." col. 1167

"Indeed, it is not to much to say that in view of the sublimity of their offices the priests are man gods."
The Dignity Of The Priesthood by Liquori pg 36.

There are many more damning statements that could be provided, but these should be sufficient to convince anyone that they are claiming that their Pope is God on earth.

Pope Nicholas I declared: "The appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man." Labb IX dist.5 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur,
Decret Gratian Primer.


What does our Bible have to say about this subject?

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there comes a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:3-4.

Students of prophecy … this does not require rocket science intellect. This clearly is what the saints and martyrs have been telling us since the Reformation. They were burnt alive at the stake declaring the errors of Rome … and yet today this is dismissed because the claim is that the False Prophet is yet future.

Martin Luther said “… … the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist … “

John Knox of Scotland said the pope should be recognized as “the very antichrist”.

Regarding the papacy, John Wesley said “He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure.”

Thomas Cranmer said … “Wherefore it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself.”

The original Westminster Confession of Faith had this to say:
There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof but is that Antichrist that Man of Sin, and Son of Perdition that exalteth himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God.
Chapter 26 Article 6.

Sir Isaac Newton stated: “If the apostasy be rightly charged upon the Church of Rome, it follows that the man of sin is the pope, not meaning this or that pope in particular, but the pope in general as the chief head and supporter of this apostasy.” From Newton’s “Dissertations On The Prophecies”.

As long as the “predictions” of today’s prophecy experts are continually placed into the future, how can they be proved wrong? This is the luxury of Hal Lindsay eschatology and that system of interpretation.

Again, the Vatican hierarchy and its Pope is the … False Prophet.

************* The word “vatic” means “prophet” *********

VATIC = PROPHET = VATICAN = FALSE PROPHET

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