Question for Preterists

[robbyyoung]

Hi Robby,

That seems to be very nebulous proof that Jesus used "heaven and earth" in the sense you understand it. I realize it is very important to your paradigm.

I do not question that Jesus may have used "heaven and earth" in a figurative sense, but maybe not.

Hi Homer,

You said, "Virtually all use in the OT refers to the actual heaven(s) and earth."

You asked me, "Where do you get your idea?"

I've given you, IMHO, undeniable proof of the term Heaven(s) and Earth as being symbolic and, as a rule, either used in a covenantal or apocalyptic genre when judgement or Israel is in context. You will have to force a nonsensical wooden literalism in these passages fostering eisegesis of a flawed presupposition.

In Bible figurative language, "heavens" refers to governments and rulers, and "earth" refers to the nation or people. Consider the following:

Isaiah 1:2 & 10

"Hear, 0 heavens, and give ear, 0 earth: for the LORD hath spoken, and I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me."

To whom is He speaking when He addresses, “O heavens" and "0 earth"? He is talking to Israel. This shows very clearly that "heavens and earth" are symbolical language for Israel. How is this confirmed? Just look at vs.10 - this passage went on to say:

"Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah." Now God was not speaking to Sodom and Gomorrah! They had been destroyed many years previously. But the rulers and people of Israel were likened to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, and it was to the "heavens and earth" also that He was speaking. The "heavens and earth" and also "the rulers of Sodom and Gomorrah" referred to Israel as a nation.

Again, another instance of either a judgment or covenantal context that uses symbolism. Yeshua and The Apostles talked and understood the language of The Law and The Prophets. Context is everything, and IHMO, The NT confirms this particular symbolism conflates with the judgements of OLD and should not be understood with a wooden literalism.

No worries though Brother. I guess we will just have to disagree and move on in the love of Christ, being faithful in all we do unto The Lord.

God Bless.

[Homer]

Robby,

You wrote:

"Hear, 0 heavens, and give ear, 0 earth: for the LORD hath spoken, and I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me."

To whom is He speaking when He addresses, “O heavens" and "0 earth"? He is talking to Israel. This shows very clearly that "heavens and earth" are symbolical language for Israel. How is this confirmed? Just look at vs.10 - this passage went on to say:

"Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah." Now God was not speaking to Sodom and Gomorrah! They had been destroyed many years previously. But the rulers and people of Israel were likened to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, and it was to the "heavens and earth" also that He was speaking. The "heavens and earth" and also "the rulers of Sodom and Gomorrah" referred to Israel as a nation.

I think your assumption regarding "heavens and earth" referring to Israel in Isaiah 1:2 is clearly false. Isaiah's poetry is almost a quote of the "Song of Moses", transposing "listen" and "hear":

Isaiah 1:2 (NASB)
Listen, O heavens, and hear, O earth;
For the Lord speaks,
“Sons I have reared and brought up,
But they have revolted against Me


Compare:

Deuteronomy 31:30-31:1
30. Then Moses spoke in the hearing of all the assembly of Israel the words of this song, until they were complete:
(The Song of Moses)
1. “Give ear, O heavens, and let me speak;
And let the earth hear the words of my mouth.

What do heavens and earth refer to? We do not have to guess; Moses himself informs us of the sense in which they were used:

Deuteronomy 31:28-29
28. Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call the heavens and the earth to witness against them. 29. For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands.”

The Heavens and earth are figuratively called as witnesses against Israel; Moses is surely not calling Israel as a witness against Israel. Heaven and earth are called upon in accordance with the Law requirement of multiple witnesses! And this motif is used frequently by Moses:

Deuteronomy 4:26 (NASB)

26. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that you will surely perish quickly from the land where you are going over the Jordan to possess it. You shall not live long on it, but will be utterly destroyed.

Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB)

19. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

The meaning of this figurative use of "heavens and earth" is obvious and your claim that it is a symbolic reference to Israel is tenuous indeed.

[steve7150]

In Zechariah 11.10 "And i took my staff, Beauty and cut it in two that i might BREAK the covenant which i had made with all the people, so it was broken ON THAT DAY."

Notice it was broken on a single day, "with all the people", which meant Israel and Judah in that context. In Zech 11.13 "And the Lord said to me , Throw it to the potter (potters field) that princely price they set on me. So i took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord for the potter."

So this refers to the betrayl of Jesus by Judas for the thirty pieces of silver and this scenerio led up to the cross , but back in Zech 11.10 the Shepherd himself is BREAKING THE COVENANT therefore it happened at the cross.







There is no need to speculate because in the above Zechariah explicitly informed us when the Old Covenant was broken. Additionally Paul confirmed it,

"having wiped out the HANDWRITING OF REQUIREMENTS that was against us which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way , HAVING NAILED IT TO THE CROSS." Col 2.14

The Handwriting of Requirements was either "The Law" or possibly the Certificate of Debt everyone owed to God for violating the Law. Either way the Law itself or the penalty of the Law was nailed to the Cross.

[robbyyoung]

I think your assumption regarding "heavens and earth" referring to Israel in Isaiah 1:2 is clearly false. Isaiah's poetry is almost a quote of the "Song of Moses", transposing "listen" and "hear":...

What do heavens and earth refer to? We do not have to guess; Moses himself informs us of the sense in which they were used:

Deuteronomy 31:28-29
28. Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call the heavens and the earth to witness against them. 29. For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands.”

The Heavens and earth are figuratively called as witnesses against Israel; Moses is surely not calling Israel as a witness against Israel. Heaven and earth are called upon in accordance with the Law requirement of multiple witnesses! And this motif is used frequently by Moses:

Hi Homer,

I was a bit too loose with my explanation concerning Israel and Isaiah 1:2. What I specifically meant to say is THE POWER of Israel. As I stated, "In Bible figurative language, "heavens" refers to governments and rulers, and "earth" refers to the nation or people." The Deut.31 quote is an excellent passage to denote what this POWER of Israel IS. I digress back to Leviticus 26:19 "I will break the pride of your power; I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze."

Homer you said, "The Heavens and earth are figuratively called as a witness against Israel..." Okay, well then what are The Heavens and earth representing, figuratively? Since this isn't the literal heavens and earth being a witness, WHO IS THE WITNESS? I would simply ask you to please provide the answer. In the meanwhile, I'll provide my answer to the question.

Examining Leviticus 26:19 -

1. What is Israel's power?
2. What is Israel's heavens and earth? (Your heavens and Your earth)

Deuteronomy 31:24-27 It came about, when Moses finished writing the words of this law in a book until they were complete, that Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, "Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you.

Vs.28, "Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call the heavens and the earth to witness against them.

Homer, Israel's power or heavens and earth was The Tabernacle of God among them. The witness is The Power and Authority of the type/ shadow of The Kingdom of God (New Heavens and Earth, The New Covenant). Please note Hebrews 8:4-5 "Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

Heb 8:9-13 validates what Moses said in Deut. 31 concerning The Witness (The New Covenant) against Israel.

I see no reason at all to abandon my understanding concerning Matt 5. The context perfectly conflates with The Law and The Prophets concerning Israel's Heavens and earth passing away, and The New Covenant standing as a witness against them IN THAT DAY.

God Bless!

[robbyyoung]

In Zechariah 11.10 "And i took my staff, Beauty and cut it in two that i might BREAK the covenant which i had made with all the people, so it was broken ON THAT DAY."

Notice it was broken on a single day, "with all the people", which meant Israel and Judah in that context. In Zech 11.13 "And the Lord said to me , Throw it to the potter (potters field) that princely price they set on me. So i took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord for the potter."

So this refers to the betrayl of Jesus by Judas for the thirty pieces of silver and this scenerio led up to the cross , but back in Zech 11.10 the Shepherd himself is BREAKING THE COVENANT therefore it happened at the cross.



There is no need to speculate because in the above Zechariah explicitly informed us when the Old Covenant was broken. Additionally Paul confirmed it,

"having wiped out the HANDWRITING OF REQUIREMENTS that was against us which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way , HAVING NAILED IT TO THE CROSS." Col 2.14

The Handwriting of Requirements was either "The Law" or possibly the Certificate of Debt everyone owed to God for violating the Law. Either way the Law itself or the penalty of the Law was nailed to the Cross.

Hi steve7150,

Yes, the covenant was broken, this is not disputed. What is disputed is the judgement that follows. Remember, the blessings and curses were conditional. Israel broke the covenant and the edict of judgement was consummated in 70 A.D. NOT at The Cross. The Cross was the Anti-Type of Zechariah, however, The Curses that would follow was consummated in 70 A.D.

God Bless.

[Homer]

Hi Robby,

You wrote:

I was a bit too loose with my explanation concerning Israel and Isaiah 1:2. What I specifically meant to say is THE POWER of Israel. As I stated, "In Bible figurative language, "heavens" refers to governments and rulers, and "earth" refers to the nation or people."

This remains an unproven assertion.

Homer you said, "The Heavens and earth are figuratively called as a witness against Israel..." Okay, well then what are The Heavens and earth representing, figuratively? Since this isn't the literal heavens and earth being a witness, WHO IS THE WITNESS? I would simply ask you to please provide the answer.

Heaven and earth are personified. This is poetry. See Deuteronomy 4:36 where:

(from F. Delitzsch)
"heaven and earth were present and participants when Jehovah gave His people the law - so then must hear and witness what Jehovah, their creator and Israel's God, has to say and complain of"

For example:

Luke 19:39-40 (NASB)

39. Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.” 40. But Jesus answered, “I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!”


I think we can recognize Jesus' figurative use of "rocks", without worrying about whether and who they might represent in particular, and comprehend His point.

Do you think the rocks represent anyone?

Homer, Israel's power or heavens and earth was The Tabernacle of God among them.

Nothing you have written proves this assertion

The witness is The Power and Authority of the type/ shadow of The Kingdom of God (New Heavens and Earth, The New Covenant). Please note Hebrews 8:4-5 "Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

Heb 8:9-13 validates what Moses said in Deut. 31 concerning The Witness (The New Covenant) against Israel.

I think you were "too loose", or something, with your statement above. I fail to see in the Hebrews passage anything relevant to "heavens and earth" being witnesses.

I don't think we are going to agree, Robby, full preterism seems a bit fantastic to me.

[jriccitelli]

‘The meaning of this figurative use of "heavens and earth" is obvious and your claim that it is a symbolic reference to Israel is tenuous indeed’ (Homer)

i agree. "The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens." 12 It is He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens…” (Jer. 10:11)

We must account for the other 6 Feast Days remaining which in NO way represented fulfillment at The Cross’ (Robby, Dec. 3)
I’m not sure why you would say this so dogmatically. 5 of the 7 Holidays can easily enough be seen in the events leading to the cross. Some in the Church see all 7 as having happened concurrently with and or within the events leading up to Pentecost (as you note above concerning first fruits). Still even if the feast of Trumpets or such, happen 2nd advent or future also, it does not take away from Christ having fulfilled the Law / taught the Law / and lived by and under the Law till his time of death, which put an end to a Law which men were to fulfill.
‘The Law, in its entirety, will still be in effect until consummation’ (Robby, Dec. 3)
I am not sure how or why you would say this, the Temple curtain was torn open and the way unto the true heavenly Holy of Holies was made open, and made accessible to believers, at His death. He offered a better sacrifice than the Law of bulls and goats. It ended.
You seem to have fulfilling the Law as a priority for Jesus’ Holiness during His life confused with what fulfilling the Law in Christ means for us now that he is raised. You seem to have His living as a Jew prior to His death, mixed up with our living in Him post his resurrection. He obeyed His mother and Father and kept the Law and feasts in his flesh, and we obey our mother and father and keep the Law and the feasts ‘in Him’ in ‘the Spirit’.
‘All The Apostles remained steadfast in ALL The Law observances…’ (Robby, Dec. 3)
Please state your source material for this.
I still think it is ok to believe that the generation that sees 'all' these things happen, defines the generation that sees His return.