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The gathering of the elect

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The gathering of the elect

Postby Gregorio » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:37 pm

Hey guys. I'm looking for any new testament passages that say the gathering of the elect in Matt 24 is fulfilled during NT times.. I did find one in 2Thess "Now we beseech you, brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind…for that day shall not come except…that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" etc. (II Thess. 2:1-3).
Any other NT passages? I heard there were a number of them? Thanks..
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Re: The gathering of the elect

Postby Homer » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:09 am

Oops! Wondered where my post went!
Last edited by Homer on Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The gathering of the elect

Postby steve7150 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:06 pm

Fly fishing for trout, steelhead, and salmon was once a big problem for me. I was out on a river 70-80 times a year. People who fished with anything but flies were beneath me. And before I became a Christian (again), I thought about the "cost" of missing those Sunday morning football games. Think of it Matt, the VCR had not been invented then! Talk about sacrifice! :lol:

There is something else we need to be wary of: theological debates can become a sport, a competition of sorts that we feel compelled to "win", and little more. Francis Schaffer commented about that in one of his books.








Homer, I think you answered in the wrong thread, besides your answer sounds like a fish story to me.
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Re: The gathering of the elect

Postby Gregorio » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:26 pm

I'm not following you Homer. If you are saying that I'm debating for sport? then you are wrong. I am looking to understand this view of gathering the elect better, not challenge people in here about it. I already believe in it and am looking for those NT scripture that show it's fulfillment. Anyways I'm not sure what you are talking about. The NT does warn against debate if someone is contentious but also promotes it.

The servant of the Lord must not quarrel but teach.
Rom 1:29 lists debate as a bad thing..

But here we are taught to debate.
Acts 17:17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
Jesus challenged and corrected peoples views almost every time He taught. He rebuked them when they were wrong even and warned them.
Paul did the same like when he rebuked Peter before them all for not eating with Gentiles.
Titus 1:13 Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;.
"I did not come to bring peace, but a sword"

Disputing is part of Christianity... we argue about views in here all the time, maturely though. IT is not wrong Homer. I believe the arguing to the point of repetitive contention is what is wrong, or someone who lives to debate. But actually debating or correcting and learning how to guide and instruct is good. We have to learn to guide conversations into truth.
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Re: The gathering of the elect

Postby steve » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:58 pm

No, Gregorio. Homer accidentally posted a reply to Matt, from another thread, under yours. He did not mean it as a response to you.
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Re: The gathering of the elect

Postby Paidion » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:00 pm

Hi Greg,

Concerning the statement in II Thess. 2:1-3) that the day of our gathering to Him will not occur until the man of sin is revealed: I don't understand why you think that statement implies that the gathering of the elect in Matt 24 was fulfilled during NT times. To my mind both events will occur in the future. Or do you interpet "the man of sin" to be someone who lived during the first century—and if so, who?

Irenæus (120-202 A.D.) believed the Man of Sin, or the Beast, or the Antichrist, whose number is 666, would come in the future from the time he wrote "Against Heresies". (See Book 5 Chapter 30).
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Re: The gathering of the elect

Postby Gregorio » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:59 am

Ok ha ha I see about Homers reply.

Paidion, I do believe that Nero was the beast, antichrist, 666 etc. and that the gathering in Matt 24 was a gathering taking place in the first century and not the rapture. But more of a gathering as in the OT where God brought the Jews together. I was listening to a Steve Gregg audio recently, I believe, and there was mentioned that there were New Testament scriptures where the gathering was said to be fulfilled in the NT times as bringing the church together either before 70ad or during this whole age. So I was wondering if anyone knew of these passages?
Steve, did I hear that correctly in one of your teachings?
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Re: The gathering of the elect

Postby Gregorio » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:26 am

Paidion,
That is interesting about Irenaeus and his view on the antichrist. I'll go and read up on this. I do know he spoke of the kingdom passages being fulfilled in the New Covenant with Christ.
175: Irenaeus - Against Heresies "the temple constructed of stones was indeed then rebuilt (for as yet that law was observed which had been made upon tables of stone), yet no new covenant was given, but they used the Mosaic law until the coming of the Lord; but from the Lord's advent, the new covenant which brings back peace, and the law which gives life, has gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: "For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem ; and He shall rebuke many people; and they shall break down their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruninghooks, and they shall no longer learn to fight."

So it is interesting to me that he is still a futurist with the tribulation or antichrist. Thanks for the info. I'll go and read it.

I did see that he speculated that the antichrist 666 and man of sin, or the meaning of 666 would probably be revealed at the fall of rome, because he wasn't sure who it was. He also seems to be a pre mil? is this correct. I'll have some reading to do to catch up on him.
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Re: The gathering of the elect

Postby Gregorio » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:44 am

I also believe this to be not speaking about the rapture because it is so similar to isa 11:10~12 gathering the Elect from the four corners, four winds in matt. right after the ensign for the nation's in the isa account and sign of the son of man in Jesus's account. And isa is clearly in the context of the days of the "root of Jesse"
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Re: The gathering of the elect

Postby dwilkins » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:38 pm

Irenaeus' position on that is indeed interesting. I've noticed throughout the years that it's very easy to put together a case for strong preterism when quoting from commentators who are covering subjects other than eschatology. So, his soteriology, or ecclesiology, etc. might make a strong preterist case, but he doesn't realize how eschatology is affected. Martin Luther in "The Jews and their Lies" goes into great detail about why Daniel's 70th Week prophecy was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. But, he doesn't seem to realize what this means for the rest of his eschatology.

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