The gathering of the elect

End Times
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Gregorio
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Re: The gathering of the elect

Post by Gregorio » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:05 pm

Right Doug I see.
That makes great sense and i've seen that in many cases where someone comes up with one idea for an eschatology view but doesn't realize that it totally refutes another view somewhere else inscripture. Case in point where most kingdom passages quoted as a future millenium by people don't see the many passages quoted by apostles as fulfilled kingdom passages.

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Re: The gathering of the elect

Post by Paidion » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:59 pm

Thanks Gregorio. I searched Irenæus' Against Heresies and found the passage you quoted. I think virtually all Christians see the New Covenant as coming with the advent of Christ. Also as Christ Himself declared to those who asked when the Kingdom of God was coming, "The Kingdom of God is among you." For among all those Pharisees stood Jesus the King and the disciples His subjects. However, that was the infant stage of the Kingdom. Some of Jesus' parables indicate that the Kingdom grows until it becomes "a great tree." He also described the final stages of the Kingdom of Heaven (or Kingdom of God) when He explained the meaning of His Kingdom parable about the wheat and the tares (darnel). He said:

Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The son of man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:40-42)

In my mind there is no historical evidence that that happened in 70 A.D. nor the prediction in the latter part of Matthew 24, and certainly not the return of Christ as the full preterists declare. Christ was describing events "at the end of the age." The new age, the age of the new convenant, has not yet ended even in our day. Of course you may be thinking that the end of the age of the old covenant is hereto referrered. But didn't that covenant end on that special day of Pentecost recorded in Acts 2? Surely Christ didn't send his angels at that time and weed out the tares and cast them into the furnace of fire, did He?

As I see it, there is no contradiction in understanding the infant stage of the Kingdom being brought by Christ during His life time as well as the New Covenant being instituted on that special day of Pentecost, and the Antichrist coming in our own future. Not if the final stage of the Kingdom takes place after Antichrist and immediately after Christ's second coming. I see no inconsistency in believing in a future reign of Christ here on earth following His return, and any other eschatological scriptures.
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Gregorio
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Re: The gathering of the elect

Post by Gregorio » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:30 pm

Hi Paidion,
In general I consider the early church fathers to be informative but not authoritative. They help us understand what may have been common, uncommon or speculative among the early church. There were many speculations among their writing and some common things, but in the end not scripture.

When it comes to Matt 13 This is clearly a passage about the end of the world. The parables are about the end of the world and not the coming of Christ in 70 ad. The translation of age here in some translations, can be taken two ways. Age of mankind or this current Age. Other translations say world. These passages speak of the end of the world where everyone is gathered to be judged, white throne, in which the elements are burned with a fervent heat. That happens at the end of this world. If you also look at verse 39 it says it again "end of this world(age)" twice .. the context is clearly the end of the world because that is when men are cast into the lake of fire.

13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

This is fitting also with 2 Peter 3:10 - 13 Where he says that the same day that the "theif in the night" comes is the same day that the elements melt with a fervent heat, heavens and earth dissolved and we get the new heavens and new earth. No millennial kingdom to wait for.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This all speaks to the resurrection being the day of the Lord and final day, white throne judgement from Revelations 20:11 where it talks of a metaphoric 1000 year reign. But I believe all those passages to be about the end of the world and not about 70 ad. because of their context and clear teaching of 2 Peter 3:10 above.

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Re: The gathering of the elect

Post by Gregorio » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:41 pm

But I believe that Most of Matt 24, except for a short bit at the end was talking about the Coming of Christ in 70 ad. None of the language there speaks of white throne judgement, separating sheep from the goats or rapture type of language. At the end he changes the subject from coming of christ to end of the world and says in verse 34
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.(coming of Christ in 70 ad this generation)
35 Heaven and earth shall(someday) pass away(End of World), but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour (end of world) no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

In other words But of the final day no man knows the hour.. because he just said that the parable of the fig tree will tell you when the coming of Christ( in 70ad) is close, at the door... but of this day (end of world,resurrection)know one knows the day or hour.. if you read it straight through he speaks of two different days and ages here.

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Re: The gathering of the elect

Post by Aaron » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:15 am

I was just reading about this today, and beginning to formulate some new thoughts on the subject.

Just before Jesus starts talking about a gathering in Matthew 24:31, he has this statement in Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!"

I don't think Jesus was commenting on how often he wanted to "rapture" the Jews, but couldn't because they were unwilling.

I think this gathering is bringing people into his protective fold.

Look at Exodus 19:4 "'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself." God did not literally lift them up and bring them to heaven, but he protected them and watched over them.

David said "O God, have mercy on me, for in you my soul takes refuge. I will take refuge in the shadow of your wings until the disaster has passed."

Another parable of gathering is in Matthew 13. A field is sown with good seed by Jesus, called the sons of the kingdom. It is mixed with bad seed sewn by the devil (the Pharisees are called sons of the devil). The sons of the kingdom live side by side with the sons of the devil for a time. When it is the harvest time at the end of the age, the angels are sent to "gather out of his kingdom all stumbling block" and cast them into the furnace. At the same time, the good seed are gathered into the "barn." The purpose of this gathering is to separate the good seed from the bad seed.

A dispensational approach to this passage doesn't work if this gathering is supposed to represent the rapture - because the bad seed are cast into the furnace at the same time, which doesn't happen during the rapture scenario.

Matthew 25:31 depicts the same idea of separating - this time the goats from the sheep. As a result of the separation, the sheep are invited to take part in the Kingdom.

I think these concepts are all brought together nicely in the Parable of the Landowner in Matthew 21.

When harvest time approached the landowner sent various servants to collect his produce from the vineyard. When they were killed, he sent his son. Important Note: according to the phrasing of this parable, Jesus first coming was in reference to harvesting the vineyard. The son was also killed. When Jesus asked the pharisees what they thought should be done, they said the landowner would "bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers..."

Jesus agreed "I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it."

Even dispensationalists agree that the Kingdom of God has been taken away from the Jewish people (although they say it won't be forever). According to this parable, the Kingdom of God was taken from the Jews and given to other nations (Gentile and Jewish believers) at the time of the harvest.

The "gathering" parables were about separating one group from another and bringing the good seed into a place of shelter and protection (the Kingdom of God).

This parable was about taking the Kingdom from one group (the unproductive bad seed) and giving the Kingdom to another group.

I think these parables were fulfilled in 70AD when Jerusalem was destroyed. The angels gathered the true seed into God's protective fold. This happened physically as the Christians safely exited the city and took refuge in Pella. This happened spiritually as the Christians took full possession of the Kingdom.

The bad seed were physically destroyed with fire. They were gathered out of the kingdom. They were spiritually condemned to judgement.

Although the Kingdom of God was established at Christ's ascension, I believe the destruction of 70AD was the final official stamp that the Kingdom of God had been taken from the Jewish people. When the temple was destroyed, so was the symbol of God's covenantal presence among them. This would have cleared up all doubt in the Christian's minds that God was no longer keeping one single nation as His prized people, but that His Kingdom was for all nations.
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Gregorio
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Re: The gathering of the elect

Post by Gregorio » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:28 am

Thanks Aaron for those scriptures. I am trying to collect any scriptures about the gathering being fulfilled as written by New Testament writers. It's amazing to me as a new Preterist how much scripture I don't know yet ;)
I also enjoy contending and learning with you Paidion... Iron Sharpens Iron brother... Blessings.

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Re: The gathering of the elect

Post by Aaron » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:43 am

Gregorio wrote: These passages speak of the end of the world where everyone is gathered to be judged, white throne, in which the elements are burned with a fervent heat. That happens at the end of this world. If you also look at verse 39 it says it again "end of this world(age)" twice .. the context is clearly the end of the world because that is when men are cast into the lake of fire.


10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Here's something I found very interesting about the phrase "the elements shall melt with fervent heat." The Greek word for elements - "stoicheion" - is never used in the Bible to describe matter, or the periodic table of the elements. The periodic table of elements was not even known at this time. We mistakenly read into that word a modern definition. The Biblical definition of elements is "principles of living" - almost always referring to the principles of the Old Testament Law. See Galatians 4:9 "But now that you know God--or rather are known by God--how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable elements (stoicheion)? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?"

See also Colossians 2:8, Colossians 2:20.

When the temple burned, the elements (principles of Old Testament sacrifices) literally melted.

I do agree that this thief in the night passage can't be about a secret rapture, because if this is about the literal destruction of the earth, this doesn't happen at the same time as the dispensational rapture scenario.
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Re: The gathering of the elect

Post by dwilkins » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:51 am

Aaron wrote:
Gregorio wrote: These passages speak of the end of the world where everyone is gathered to be judged, white throne, in which the elements are burned with a fervent heat. That happens at the end of this world. If you also look at verse 39 it says it again "end of this world(age)" twice .. the context is clearly the end of the world because that is when men are cast into the lake of fire.


10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Here's something I found very interesting about the phrase "the elements shall melt with fervent heat." The Greek word for elements - "stoicheion" - is never used in the Bible to describe matter, or the periodic table of the elements. The periodic table of elements was not even known at this time. We mistakenly read into that word a modern definition. The Biblical definition of elements is "principles of living" - almost always referring to the principles of the Old Testament Law. See Galatians 4:9 "But now that you know God--or rather are known by God--how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable elements (stoicheion)? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?"

See also Colossians 2:8, Colossians 2:20.

When the temple burned, the elements (principles of Old Testament sacrifices) literally melted.

I do agree that this thief in the night passage can't be about a secret rapture, because if this is about the literal destruction of the earth, this doesn't happen at the same time as the dispensational rapture scenario.
This is a critical point. Look at all of the uses of stoicheia in the NT. They refer to the foundational principles or functions of liturgy under the Old Covenant. That's the only thing that was prophesied against. Because the language was similar to the position of the Stoics, who did see a mandatory melting of all physical matter before a recreation, the idea that the physical world would be melted crept into the church in the first few hundred years. But, scripture doesn't require this. Scripture says that the Kingdom of God with Christ on the throne is one that will continually grow, not fail so that it has to be melted down.

Doug

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Gregorio
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Re: The gathering of the elect

Post by Gregorio » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:03 pm

ok what is the heavens being on fire in the next verses and why together... and as well

in matt 24 he uses the word earth instead of elements... in vers 35 how does that fit... earth is usually referring to physical

are there any places where earth is not physical? and any other verses about the day of the Lord referring to principles of living and not elements?

dangitt ha ha.. now i'm gonna be studying again for a month ha ha... and probably changing ... it's all good...
it's been a year of doctrinal change for me.lol

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Gregorio
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Re: The gathering of the elect

Post by Gregorio » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:22 pm

ok and also please explain rev 21:1 I saw the new heavens and earth for the old had passed away... is that only metaphor? if all the old passed away was referring to principles of living why refer to it as a metaphor and why use "earth passing away"... and also in this view that you speak of.. are all the old testament references to physical earth passing away metaphor as well?

also So why use that as a metaphor when he had already said plainly that he came to fulfill the law...
Plus the context of matt 24 seems to be end of the 70 ad age and then in vs 35 the context is about the resurection at the end of the world.
why bring up the laws or principles of heaven and earth being passed away with now?

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
I gues I having trouble seeing metaphor or principles in this and the in the verse that speaks of the new heaven and earth not having a sea()rev21:1). Alot of the language sounds physical.

Also just because the word elements was not found in the bible elswhere to mean physical, that doesn't always mean the bible is exhaustive in the language. The bible only holds 1/3 of the greek koine language at all and no capitols I beleive.. just thinking out loud. There are greek words that are used once or a couple of times but the hermaneutics of the sentence demands different interpretation. Not saying this is the case yet... just talking and thinking out loud. :)

Thanks

i'll be reading up more ... all new to me..so lots of questions :) :S
Please put up with my questions for a bit ha ha

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