Futurist application of Matthew 24 to the end times

[Paidion]

And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9 ESV

)

The disciples saw Jesus go up into the clouds. Evidence that anyone saw Him return in the same way in 70 A.D. is ZILCH.

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. (Rev 1:7)

There is no evidence that ANY eye saw Him return in 70 A.D. or that even ONE tribe of the earth saw Him or wailed because of Him. Interpret "earth" as "land" and restrict it to the land near Jerusalem, if you wish. It makes no difference. Nobody saw Him. Why? Because He didn't return in 70 A.D. When He returns, it will be like the lighting (the sun) coming up from the east and shining to the west (Matt 24:27). When the sun rises in the east, shines all day, and sets in the west, EVERY EYE SEES IT. But again NO EYE saw Jesus return in 70 A.D.

Let's face it. The full preterists are wrong. Yet, ironically, some of them accuse non-full preterists of bypassing scripture and inventing their own paradigm of thought.

[steve7150]

I am very interested to hear from you, dizerner, and steve7150 concerning my above text. As brothers in the Lord, show me my confusion to accept THEIR testimony as stated.










Robby,
I'll be back ASAP to ask you about the 2nd part of Matt 24 but as i have said many times , i accept that there are many statements about 70AD as you have mentioned but many does not equal "all."

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[TheEditor]

I'll have to agree with you here Dizerner. It seems that in the parables especially, Jesus painted a verbal portrait of people going about their daily business and then "Surprise!". "Two are grinding, one is taken.....two are in the same bed, one is taken...." It also seems as though that one in particular indicates a simultaneous worlwide occurence, as some are laboring in the sun, while others are asleep in bed.

Regards, Brenden.

[steve7150]

I am very interested to hear from you, dizerner, and steve7150 concerning my above text. As brothers in the Lord, show me my confusion to accept THEIR testimony as stated.





Robby,
I do and we all here at this forum do accept the Apostles testimony so you don't get any extra credit on that point. Firstly i'm interested in your take on Matt 24.36-39

36 "But of that day and hour no one knows"

37 "But as the days of Noah were so also will the coming of the Son of Man be" For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking , marrying and giving in marriage until the day Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."






In verse 36 Jesus says only the Father knows when he will return but that can't be 70AD because he repeatedly warned about that event, he even told Christians when to flee which was when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and that it would occur in this generation and that some would be alive at his return. So it appears to be an event far in the future which only the Father knew when.

In verses 37 - 39 Jesus describes people being blissfully ignorant of danger, just living their lives normally when suddenly with no apparent warning they are taken away in judgment.
Exactly the opposite of the circumstances of Jerusalem 70AD when Roman armies settled in around Jerusalem for about 3 years to starve the city to death and they slowly starved and eventually turned on each other. They were not swept away and there was no suddenness about their situation. Just the opposite of how the Second Coming is described.

[robbyyoung]

5. Therefore, Peter says in 1 Peter 4:5-7, emphasis on vs. 7, "The end of all things is near..."

For me all the NT references to near or soon are simply a command for us to live ready, not a literal description of how much literal time may or may not go by. In other words, the end of all things is relatively near concerning the overall relativity of a limited amount of time versus eternity, and the uncertainty, and possibility of it occurring at any moment of which we do not know...

Well there you go one and all. Ok there Brother dizerner, were done discussing eschatology. Up means down, left means right, near means far, far away, and far far away means "who knows"! You have managed to create for yourself an anti-Berean approach. For when you search the scriptures to see if "this or that" is so, time and audience is a perpetual constant when you decide it is! Your line of thinking wouldn't have lasted one minute in a conversation with Yeshua or The Apostles. This is the most absurd approach to scripture if I ever heard one.

You and I are as far away from each other in understanding how to read eschatological scriptures as the east is from the west. So we are both wasting our time discussing any audience relevance question, time statements, and eschatology in general. I'm sure you would agree. For we don't even start with the same foundation, e.g. the relevance of the promises made to the original audience.

Lastly, the rules didn't magically change on how to read an historical document, or any correspondence NOT ORIGINALLY addressed to you. Every thing in that correspondence has relevance to it's original recipient(s). This basic function of how to read ancient or recent literature is the same. Personal pronoun usage and grammar rules still apply.

Very strange and baffling approach you have to how to exegetically read and study the bible. But if it works for you, I say, "faithfully see it through to it's end".

God Bless.

[robbyyoung]

I'll have to agree with you here Dizerner. It seems that in the parables especially, Jesus painted a verbal portrait of people going about their daily business and then "Surprise!". "Two are grinding, one is taken.....two are in the same bed, one is taken...." It also seems as though that one in particular indicates a simultaneous worlwide occurence, as some are laboring in the sun, while others are asleep in bed.

Regards, Brenden.

Hi Brenden,

Since you agree with Brother dizerner, I will make another attempt to reason with you concerning personal pronoun usage.

Yeshua said the following:

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

Brenden, Yeshua then sets the conditions for these events to transpire, we continue to read:

"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, YOU KNOW that summer is near;"

Brenden, there's that "pain in the neck" NEAR statement and worst yet, Yeshua said someone can ACTUALLY know what NEAR means. But summer IS ALWAYS NEAR, right? Or does NEAR mean 1 million years into the past or future? Oh well, whatever, right? But here's the part I really like, Yeshua continues:

"so, YOU TOO, when YOU see all these things, recognize that HE IS NEAR, right at the door."

Brenden, who is the YOU Yeshua is referring to? Is it not:

Peter, James, John, and Andrew.

Brenden, what is "all these things" Peter, James, John, and Andrew will see to know Yeshua is right at the door?

Your turn...

God Bless.

[robbyyoung]

Robby,
I do and we all here at this forum do accept the Apostles testimony so you don't get any extra credit on that point. Firstly i'm interested in your take on Matt 24.36-39

36 "But of that day and hour no one knows"

37 "But as the days of Noah were so also will the coming of the Son of Man be" For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking , marrying and giving in marriage until the day Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."

In verse 36 Jesus says only the Father knows when he will return but that can't be 70AD because he repeatedly warned about that event, he even told Christians when to flee which was when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and that it would occur in this generation and that some would be alive at his return. So it appears to be an event far in the future which only the Father knew when.

Hi steve7150, no one knew the day or hour to be 70AD. All the signs led up to 70AD, and no one claimed to know the specific year, month, day, or hour. Besides all this, verse 33 clearly describes 4 clear witnesses to all these things to be, Peter, James, John, and Andrew for sure.

In verses 37 - 39 Jesus describes people being blissfully ignorant of danger, just living their lives normally when suddenly with no apparent warning they are taken away in judgment. Exactly the opposite of the circumstances of Jerusalem 70AD when Roman armies settled in around Jerusalem for about 3 years to starve the city to death and they slowly starved and eventually turned on each other. They were not swept away and there was no suddenness about their situation. Just the opposite of how the Second Coming is described.

steve7150, Luke gives a more succinct, gentile rendering approach to Christ's parousia. Matthew's account really jumps around and is highly symbolized. So let's read Luke in comparison to Matthew's Second Coming account.

Luke 21:7 simple states, when will The Temple' be destroyed and what will be the sign before this takes place?

Notice the Jewish mindset in Matthew 24:3 which states;
1. when will The Temple' be destroyed
2. what will be the sign of Your coming
3. and of the end of the age?"

Therefore, to the gentile, Christ Parousia or Second Coming entails signs and events before The Temple is destroyed, which is The End of the Age.

As far as the Days of Noah is concerned, this attitude is exactly what was exhibited form the Jews who ignored the preachers and warnings, making their pilgrimage to The City, to observe their Holy Convocations, as The Christians fled to safety. How all the events transpired, some in the seen and unseen realm can't possibly be reconciled emphatically, but what can be reconciled is the audience that will be around to witness such events. So Brother, I simply ask you to read Luke 21:5-36 and pay close attention to Yeshua's pronoun usage (YOU) directed towards Peter, James, John, and Andrew. Then ask yourself, are any of the events talked about outside the time parameters of The Disciples lifetime?

God Bless.

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[steve7150]

As far as the Days of Noah is concerned, this attitude is exactly what was exhibited form the Jews who ignored the preachers and warnings, making their pilgrimage to The City, to observe their Holy Convocations, as The Christians fled to safety. How all the events transpired, some in the seen and unseen realm can't possibly be reconciled emphatically, but what can be reconciled is the audience that will be around to witness such events. So Brother, I simply ask you to read Luke 21:5-36 and pay close attention to Yeshua's pronoun usage (YOU) directed towards Peter, James, John, and Andrew. Then ask yourself, are any of the events talked about outside the time parameters of The Disciples lifetime?





Robby,
You have a method of not precisely addressing my responses but answering almost in a pre-packaged way to defend Preterism. The first thing is that "as it was in the days of Noah" lines up precisely with Luke 17.26 which Luke shows is a different discourse then Luke 21. Luke 21 is about Jerusalem 70AD but Luke 17.22 - 37 is about the second coming. Matthew 24 is divided into two different discourses with Matt 24.36 on, lining up with Luke 17.22-37.
The essence of "the days of Noah" is the suddenness of judgment which certainly was not the case in 70AD , plus the ones subject to Judgment were taken away and their corpses were found eaten by eagles, again nothing like 70AD. 70AD was a three year siege of starvation, nothing sudden about it.
I think the day and hour of this 70AD siege was known by Jesus as he told his disciples to flee when armies surrounded Jerusalem because the army pulled back temporarily and that was the time to flee. Plus one could visibly see the Roman army marching toward Jerusalem therefore the actual day and hour certainly could be visibly seen and known.
Lastly re Paul, what i said was that the nations were never made disciples and you keep responding that Paul said the gospel was taught throughout the world.
But my point was about the nations never being made into disciples and therefore Paul and the others kept preaching intensely well after he made his statement about the gospel being preached to the world. Because the nations were never made disciples even to this day.