Revelation 21 and 22

[Paidion]

I agree, Singalphile. The "New Jerusalem" and its description is a symbol for the "Lamb's Wife" which itself is symbolic of a particular class of people. The angel did not reveal to the author some wonderful eschatological city to be, but revealed to his the characteristics of the "Bride of Christ".

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife." And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God... (Rev 21:9,10)

[dwilkins]

engaged the function of the gates always being open, especially in the time of the New Heavens and New Earth, if there is no one left to save


To me this is an allusion toward postmortem salvation since the unsaved are in the LOF. In Rev 22.2 "and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations" , so where there is healing needed there is disease and imperfection.

I can see where restorationism might come from this. But, I think it's more likely that it is describing people becoming members of the New Jerusalem (or church) during ongoing human history on earth. There is no mention in these chapters to the people coming from the Lake of Fire. They seem to walk into the city from the surrounding lands (cf. Neh. 14).

Doug

[Singalphile]

I think it would be helpful if you engaged the function of the gates always being open, especially in the time of the New Heavens and New Earth, if there is no one left to save at that point according to your paradigm as I understand it.

Okay. First, it seems clear that the gates at least symbolize the international nature of the "city" as well as its security. When the time comes when there isn't anyone who practices lying and abomination, then such people obviously won't be entering any gates. Of course many Christians think that such people will live forever in a sinful state, but I reckon not, and this passage doesn't say so. It states that the church/bride of Christ does not and will never consist of such people.

In addition, if you are right that the New Jerusalem throughout history is in view from 21:9 on, then the only verses in the Bible that describe the eternal state are Revelation 21:1-8. And, they say almost nothing about it. Or, are you saying that these two chapters jump back and forth between the final state and the church age?

No, I don't see any back and forth within either vision. It could be that our disconnect is due in part to my more non-literal interpretation of this passage. I don't think it is meant to describes some geographic location where we spiritually live or will live, and I don't think that we will all be forever confined inside some large "eschatological city to be", as Paidion put it. The passage describes (perhaps primarily) the character (double meaning intended) of the bride, aka, the Church using the imagery of a great city, and the Church's character is eternal although its circumstances will change.

21:1-8 might be the only description of the eternal state in the new heaven/earth. I'm not sure. It sounds quite nice, though.

Have you ever read James Jordan's book "Though New Eyes"?

I haven't. Seems interesting, though. Thank you.

[Duncan]

Here is something from volume II of The Antichrist and the Second Coming.

THE NEW JERUSALEM
In Revelation 21:1-2 John sees a new heaven and new earth with the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven prepared as a bride. At first glance it appears that this is the eternal state. Notice however that inside the New Jerusalem are those in the Lamb’s Book of Life (Rev. 21:27; 22:14), and on the outside are the unrighteous (Rev. 22:15). This is not showing the eternal state, with believers in a literal city and non-believers outside the city; rather, it is showing the post-AD 70 spiritual order of this world. It is referring to AD 70 and the destruction of the harlot (the old covenant order) and the marriage of the bride (the establishment of a new heaven and earth). Those inside the New (covenant) Jerusalem have access to the tree and water of life; those outside the new covenant “city” do not have access to eternal life (Rev. 21:2-8; 22:1-5). The images of Revelation do not suddenly become literal at chapter 21.

The New Jerusalem is not a city that contains the bride; the city is the bride (Rev. 21:9-10)—just as the “city” of Babylon is the harlot (Rev. 17:18). The New Jerusalem is a picture of God’s new covenant community (cf. Eph. 5:22-32);4 it is not a literal description of the place where that community lives. Robert Gundry (in a paper aptly titled “The New Jerusalem: People as Place, not Place for People”) writes the following on this.

In [Rev.] 21:2-3, 9b-10 . . . John first compares the city to a bride adorned for her husband and then calls the city “the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” We already know from 19:7-8 that the Lamb’s bride is the saints, arrayed in their righteous acts. The repeated description of the bride-wife as “made ready” also unites these two passages. Confirmation comes from 22:17, where the bride will join the Spirit in saying, “Come,” which is the prayer of the suffering saints, “Amen, come, Lord Jesus” (22:20). Therefore the city = the bride-wife = the saints . . . .5 (underlined emphasis mine)

Although Ladd thinks the new heaven and earth is a description of the eternal state, he admits to “some difficulties” with this position.

John has already mentioned briefly the descent of the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven to take up its permanent location among men on earth. Now John retraces his steps and adds a detailed description of the holy city. The description presents some difficulties, in that it does not seem to represent a situation in which all things have been made new and God’s new order purged of all evil. On the contrary, the earth is seen as being inhabited by nations who walk in the light of the city, who apparently are not residents of the city itself, and by kings who bring their glory into it (vs. 24). The leaves of the tree of life are for the healing of the nations (22:2)—a strange statement with reference to a redeemed, glorified humanity. Furthermore, a verse in the epilogue, looking back to the holy city, pictures dogs and sorcerers and fornicators as cowering outside the city wall, excluded from the city itself . . . .6

The reason there is still evil in the new heaven and new earth is because it is a symbolic portrayal of the post-AD 70 spiritual state of the world after the full establishment of God’s kingdom. At the cross Satan was cast out of heaven (John 12:31-33); the kingdom of God was established in heaven at this time, but it was not fully established in the earthly realm yet (Rev. 12:1-12, esp. v. 12; cf. Luke 19:11-27). The picture of the New (covenant) Jerusalem coming to earth (Rev. 21:2) represents the AD 70 full establishment of the kingdom of God at the Second Coming (cf. Dan. 7:21-27). This happened at the AD 70 destruction of those who were morally corrupting the land (Rev. 11:15-18). Evil will be fully purged from the cosmos, but that happens at the end of the millennium (which is still future to us, Rev. 20:7-10).

The image of the New Jerusalem—prepared as a bride—descending to the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21 is returning to the subject of the AD 70 marriage of the Lamb (Rev. 19:6-9; cf. Matt. 22:1-10). It is giving us more information about God’s new covenant people by switching from the image of a bride to that of a city. This switch provides a fresh canvas for the continued unveiling (by way of symbols) of the truths of Revelation. Consider Revelation 21:9-10; an angel tells John that he is going to show him the bride. What he shows him is the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is the bride; they are two symbols of the same thing—God’s new covenant people.

This same technique is used in Revelation 17-18. The unfaithful old covenant community is first presented as a woman (the harlot) in chapter 17, and then as a city (Babylon) in chapter 18 (cf. Rev. 17:18). Paralleling this, in Revelation 19 the faithful new covenant community is first presented as a woman (the bride, vv. 1-9). There is a digression in chapter 20 as the millennium is discussed. The new covenant community is now presented as a city (New Jerusalem) in Revelation 21-22.

THE NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH IN ISAIAH 65-66
Since the idea that the new heaven and earth symbolizes the renewed spiritual condition of the world (cf. Acts 3:19-21) is foreign to many, I shall briefly examine Isaiah’s discussion of the “new heavens and new earth.” I have touched on this topic in volume one (pp. 297-316), but it is worth going over again.

Isaiah 65-66 contains the only explicit references to the new heavens and earth in the OT (although other sections of Isaiah speak of the renewed Jerusalem of this time, e.g., Isaiah 60; cf. Rev. 21:23-27; 22:5). According to the NT (Rom. 10:20-21, see below), the context of Isaiah 65-66 is the juxtaposition of God’s unfaithful old covenant people with those of the new covenant (who would inhabit a new heavens and earth). This point needs to be stressed: Isaiah 65-66 is not talking about a new planet but a new people and new covenant—the AD 70 changeover from the old covenant to the new (cf. Matt. 21:33-45).
Isaiah 65 begins with the following introduction:

“I was sought by those who did not ask for Me; I was found by those who did not seek Me. I said, Here I am, here I am, to a nation that was not called by My name. I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good, according to their own thoughts; a people who provoke Me to anger continually to My face; who sacrifice in gardens, and burn incense on altars of brick . . . Therefore I will number you [the rebellious people] for the sword, and you shall all bow down to the slaughter; because, when I called you did not answer; when I spoke, you did not hear, but did evil before my eyes, and chose that in which I do not delight.
Isaiah 65:1-3, 12

Paul quotes this section of Isaiah in Romans 10 and applies it to God’s new covenant people versus his rebellious old covenant people.

But Isaiah is very bold and says “I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.” But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”
Romans 10:20-21 (emphasis in original)

According to Paul, the context of the new heavens and earth in Isaiah 65-66 is ultimately the contrast between God’s disobedient old covenant people and his obedient new covenant servants. Paul likens God’s unfaithful old covenant people to “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” (Rom. 9:22). He likens God’s new covenant people to “vessels of mercy which he had prepared beforehand for glory” (Rom. 9:23). In Isaiah 65:11-19, God says that his faithful new (covenant) people would rejoice at the time that rebellious Israel was slain; this was when there would be a new heaven and new earth.

But you [the rebellious nation of Israel, Isa. 65:2; cf. Rom. 10:21] are those who forsake the Lord, who forget My holy mountain, who prepare a table for Gad, and who furnish a drink offering for Meni. Therefore I will number you for the sword, and you shall all bow down to the slaughter; because, when I called, you did not answer; when I spoke, you did not hear, but did evil before My eyes, and chose that in which I do not delight. Therefore thus says the Lord God: Behold My servants shall eat, but you shall be hungry; Behold My servants shall drink, but you shall be thirsty; Behold My servants shall rejoice, but you shall be ashamed; Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart, but you shall cry for sorrow of heart, and wail for grief of spirit. You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen; for the Lord God will slay you, and call His servants by another name; so that he who blesses himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he who swears in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hidden from My eyes. For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing and her people a joy. I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in My people; the voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, nor the voice of crying [cf. Rev. 21:4].
Isaiah 65:11-19

According to Isaiah, the new heavens and new earth would happen at the time God slew his unfaithful (old covenant) people and called his (new covenant) servants by another name (Isa. 65:15; cf. Rev. 19:2-5). That time was AD 70; the new name was Christian (cf. Acts 11:26). There would be a renewed Jerusalem at this time that God would rejoice in (vv. 18-19). This Jerusalem without weeping is the New Jerusalem—the bride (Rev. 21:1-4).

In Isaiah 65:13-14 God contrasts the joy that would happen at this time for his servants with the grief that would overtake his rebellious people. God’s faithful servants would be celebrating (at the wedding feast; Rev. 19:1-9) at the same time unfaithful Israel was mourning. Revelation 18-19 shows this contrast of joy and sorrow as God destroys the harlot and marries his new covenant bride—his true servants.

The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning . . . And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore . . . [And those who trade on the sea] threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing . . . .
Revelation 18:9, 11, 19

True and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her . . . Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!” . . . Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.
Revelation 19:2, 5, 7

The contrast between the joys of God’s new covenant servants as opposed to the sorrows of rebellious Israel (Isa. 65:2) happens at the establishment of the new heaven and new earth (Isa. 65:13-18). This is referring to the AD 70 destruction of Israel and the concurrent full establishment of the kingdom of God (Rev. 11:15-18). The kingdom was fully given to God’s new covenant people at the AD 70 destruction of his unfaithful old covenant people (Matt. 21:33-45). The “sons of the kingdom” were to be cast out at its full establishment (Matt. 8:11-12). It should be noted that Isaiah 65 is not talking about some future punishment of Israel at the end of time. The future for physical Israel is not punishment but restoration, as they will be grafted back into the tree of true Israel (Rom. 11:11-27). I will discuss this more in the next chapter.

FOR AS THE DAYS OF A TREE, SO SHALL BE THE DAYS OF MY PEOPLE
Isaiah 65:17-22 shows a greatly extended life expectancy of God’s people in the new heavens and new earth.

For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing and her people a joy. I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in My people; the voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, nor the voice of crying. No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; for the child shall die one hundred years old, but the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. They shall build houses and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, and My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isaiah 65:17-22

Some futurists say this is talking about a future physical millennial reign of Jesus on earth. Curiously, they see this as a time when some believers will be in resurrected bodies while other believers will be in physical bodies.7 Notice, however, Isaiah 65 is talking about the new heaven and new earth (v. 17). This fits my position well (that the millennium and the new heaven and new earth are synonymous) but is a problem for futurists. Dispensationalists say that the new heaven and new earth is the eternal state, and that it happens after a literal thousand-year millennial period.8

Preterists often point to the fact that people still die in the new heaven and new earth as proof that it is not the eternal state. While this is correct, one could counter that childhood does not last till one hundred today as Isaiah 65:20 portrays. This is not a prophecy about one-hundred-year-old children, however. The extended life expectancies described here (“as the days of a tree” v. 22) are not a prophecy of longer physical life in a future millennium but a foreshadowing of the eternal life that those who are part of the new covenant have today (cf. John 8:51). Those who are part of the new covenant have eternal life; we are never separated from God and will never see spiritual death (“And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die . . .” John 11:26; cf. Rev. 21:2-4). The believer today has become part of the new creation that makes up the new heaven and new earth: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new” (2 Cor. 5:17).

[dwilkins]

Duncan,

Is there any scripture in your opinion that describes the eternal state?

Singaphile,

Don't you think it's odd that in your system in all of scripture only one short paragraph that actually describes the eternal state?

Doug

[Singalphile]

Don't you think it's odd that in your system in all of scripture only one short paragraph that actually describes the eternal state?

Hello, again.

I've never really thought about how much it is described or ought to be described. I can't think of what difference it would make one way or the other.

[dwilkins]

Don't you think it's odd that in your system in all of scripture only one short paragraph that actually describes the eternal state?

Hello, again.

I've never really thought about how much it is described or ought to be described. I can't think of what difference it would make one way or the other.

It seems to me that if you have a conception of the eternal state that is not based on scripture that it might instead be based on fantasy. I think that might be bad.

Doug

[dwilkins]

How do the eternal perfected earth advocates explain their position on this?

I'll jump in if only to get the conversation started (b/c I'd like to read the conversation!)

I don't know if I'm the right guy to start the conversation, though, since my views of this are fairly vague. I do believe God's goal is paradise restored... to dwell on a renewed earth with His creation. I believe that is what we are told to pray regularly (for the Kingdom of God to come to earth). I believe God's redemption ultimately redeems everything... far as the curse is found... and the curse is found on earths ground. This is all along the lines of the 2 books you mentioned by Wright and Alcorn.

On the other hand, I've also been influenced by Jerry Walls protestant version of purgatory. I don't think people (or even creation?) will be zapped with perfection instantaneously. I think God prefers to partner with creation and accomplish genuine perfection through the passage of time. I don't exactly know what this will look like, but I think Revelation 21-22 is a symbolic picture of this tension. I also believe in a hybrid form of hell (potential restoration for any repentant but eventual extinction for the non-repentant). So that would fit in there somewhere too (quite nicely, I think).

I am familiar with Wright's book (though I haven't read it cover to cover yet) and I am about 1/2 way through Alcorn's book, and I have reviewed LIfeway's new Sunday School curriculum that follows their paradigm, so I think I'm basically familiar with their point. One of the things that makes no sense to me is the effort to progressively redeem the earth before the initiation of the eternal state. In every eschatological paradigm that I'm aware of the eternal state is initiated by the Gog and Magog war of Revelation. Premillennialists include the full content of the book of Revelation. Partial preterist Amillennial and Postmillial advocates try to minimize the role of the Olivet Discourse and the majority of Revelation, but they all concede that these are types and shadows of the real end time cataclysm, so in the end it is no help. No matter how you cut it, the earth will undergo a disastrous judgment and then will be melted down to the elemental level before it is restored. It wouldn't matter, then, if the elements had been partially or almost completely redeemed before this melting. Whatever religious, sociological, or ecological advances had been made in the prior period would be burned up at the end time (or is it that God only has the power to fix part of the earth so we have to get most of it ready for him?). The chronology of events in Wright's and Alcorn's system is that we are continually more successful in redeeming the earth and then God steps in and initiates the new creation. What they are forgetting or ignoring is that between those two phases Christianity is defeated in a rebellion that drives them back into a perimeter around Jerusalem (metaphorical or otherwise). This rebellion comes with catastrophic judgment against the earth and the people on it. I fail to see how an interim redemption of the earth is meaningful or required.

Doug

[robbyyoung]

Gentlemen,

I am a "Full Preterist", fully accepting the inspired interpretation of Old Covenant prophecies by Jesus and the Apostles. They clearly and unequivocally taught that every aspect of their hope and salvation would be fulfilled in their generation. No where, and I do mean NO WHERE, will you find any New Testament scripture leading the 1st Century Church to believe that ANY end time event would take place outside their generation. I challenge the noble Berean spirit to prove otherwise.

Now this being the case, we are left with two basic thought processes that will govern how we study the NATURE of these events. Because the audience relevance and time statements are irrefutable:

1. They were right! or... 2. They were wrong!

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm going to side with my 1st Century Brethren and choose option #1. The nature of how these "end time" events took place is the real study, NOT the time statements regarding that 1st Century generation. This reminds me of Jesus' dealings with the unbelieving Jews during His ministry. I believe most, if not every, conversation He had with them, they had taken Him to be either possessed or crazy. Why? Because He had a spiritual interpretation for every Old Covenant promise that was being fulfilled. When they took a wooden literalistic understanding He rejected the "type or shadow" and gave them the anti-type (spiritual fulfillment) which was none other than Himself.

So in return what was their response, "they rejected His interpretation of Old Covenant promises and prophecies" to their own destruction. They wanted their wooden literalism and it has reared its ugly head once more in our day.

It's been almost 2000 years. In spite of man's evil ways, the miracle of the gospel has flourish throughout all the world just as God promised. God's Kingdom has and always will be "without observation" and yet, since AD 70, it's been established firm within the hearts of every believer for ages to come, eternal in nature. The wait has been over since the fall of Jerusalem, this is the testimony of the scriptures.

Option #2 is inconceivable, but that's the only other choice left in any measure of truthfulness. Go there, and you will tumble down the proverbial rabbit-hole indefinitely. There you will find the best sci-fi teachings known to the human mind!

Let me ask you, if Jesus wanted to let John know His (Jesus') Revealing of Himself was soon to take place, how best could he have said it?

Well how about starting the conversation by saying, John I'm going to show you things that will take place soon concerning me. And John, some of these things already happened, some are happening right now, and some are yet to take place very soon. ...So Jesus begins the task of revealing Himself to John in order for the message to be sent abroad to the churches, then, how does He (Jesus) make sure everyone understands the time statement concerning the entire revelation, John, listen closely, I am coming quickly!

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

This is my brief thought process concerning numerous supporting scriptures that confirm for me that our Brethren nearly 2000 years ago were absolutely right and everything happened just as Jesus and the Apostles promised. Wooden literalism is what got the Jews in trouble, I encourage you to read those accounts and you will be amazed in what spiritual interpretation where applied, whether it be the resurrection, the kingdom, last days, second coming, etc... it's there, all of it! Spiritual in nature and the Jews rejected it altogether.

God Bless!

[Duncan]

Duncan,

Is there any scripture in your opinion that describes the eterNnal state?


Doug

Not sure on that Doug. Let me think out loud on this.

In Daniel we are brought to AD 70 full establishment of God's kingdom in chapters 2 (vv. 34-35, 44-45) 7 (vv. 17-27) 9 and 11:36-12:13 at the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish nation (Dan. 9:26-27; 12:1-7). What the NT calls "the age to come" began at AD 70. Daniel 7 shows all four of the beasts losing their authority at the coming of the ancient of days (cf. Dan. 7:21-22). Only the fourth beast is actually destroyed at this time however. The first 3 beasts are allowed into the kingdom age.

7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

9 “I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.

11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Thus, the first three beasts would not be destroyed till a future time (from AD 70).

In Revelation we are brought to the same point of the AD 70 full establishment of the kingdom (Rev. 11:15-18). Revelation shows Satan as bound at this point. We are given a brief glimpse of what happens at the end of the millennium in Rev. 20:7-10

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Satan is destroyed at that time (he was defeated at the cross, Matt. 28:18 but not put in the lake of fire at that time). I would argue that the first three beasts of Daniel 7 are also destroyed at that time (as all satanic evil is destroyed). What happens after that I am not sure.

For those who die after AD 70 the eternal state begins at that time (cf. Rev. 14:13). I don't think they are in heaven waiting for a recreated earth or for the resurrection to happen.

So do you see the eternal state described in Scripture? I have no doubt that there will be fullness of joy as we experience the full presence of God (I believe that believers are currently face to face with God but not yet experientially face to face with him).