Was Nero the Beast of Revelation?

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Paidion
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Was Nero the Beast of Revelation?

Post by Paidion » Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:26 pm

Was Nero the beast Whom John saw in his vision as recored in Revelation, the beast whose number is 666?
Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?" And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If anyone has an ear, let him hear. He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666. (Rev 13:1-18 NKJV)

One might ask whether an image of Nero was ever given breath so that it spoke, and whether any “beast” who supported Nero had everyone killed who would not worship the his image—an image which both breathed and spoke.

One might also ask whether there was a time in Nero's reign where people couldn't buy or sell unless they has a mark on their right hand or forehead (not Nero's image on the coins, as some claim).

However, the main claim I would like to make at this time is that the number of Nero's name is NOT 666. The preamble is helpful information, but the real evidence will be found near the end of this article. Please read patiently until then.

I wish to begin by considering what language John, the writer of Revelation, was using in writing that book. Clearly it was Greek.

The Greeks used the letters in their alphabet to represent numbers. I have a copy of the manuscript Papyrus 66, which contains most of John's gospel, and is believed to have been written about 150 A.D. The page numbers of the manuscript are given in Greek numerical characters that represent numbers as follows (There early documents were written all in upper-case characters); they looked a bit like this:

1 Α alpha
2 Β beta
3 Γ gamma
4 Δ delta
5 Ε epsilon
7 Ζ zeta
8 Η eta
9 Θ theta
10 Ι iota
20 Κ kappa
30 Λ lamda
40 Μ mu
50 Ν nu
60 Ξ xi
70 Ο omicron
80 Π pi
100 Ρ rho
200 Σ sigma
300 τ tau
400 Υ upsilon
500 Φ phi
600 Χ chi
700 Ψ psi
800 Ω omega

You might wonder why 6, 90, and 900 are missing. These numbers were represented by characters outside the alphabet as follows:

6 ϝ digamma (later became C stigma)
90 ϟ qoppa
900 ϡ sampi

The earliest extant manuscript of Rev 13:18 is papyrus 113 dated in the third century (the 200s). I have a photo copy of the portion of the manuscript giving the number of the beast as XIC (616). Now I know that Irenæus writes in Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 30, that 616 is the incorrect number and that it was probably a copyist's error. That well may be. But the point I am making is not that the number should be 616 as in the earliest extant manuscript, but that whichever is correct WAS WRITTEN IN REVELATION as a number in Greek characters. Some manuscripts have 666, and it is written as XΞC (chi,xi,stigma).
John the writer of Revelation wrote numbers in the Greek way using Greek letters or symbols. He did not use any other language to write them.

Some try to figure out the name with the number 666, by doing it in English—working out a system where a=1, b=2, c=3, etc. But why would John have predicted the name with an English system centuries before the English language existed? But preterists claim thατ Nero's name is 666 when calculated in the Hebrew letter-numeric system. The Hebrew system existed in the days of John, but a similar question can be asked, Why would the name be calculated in Hebrew when John himself used the Greek system το express numbers? Irenæus suggested names whose number was 666 in the Greek system, and he clearly expected the “beast” whom he called “antichrist” to appear at a time future to his own time. Here are the names he suggested:

1 EYANΘAΣ (Euanthas). But Eusebius had nothing to say about this name. From the chart of Greek numerics we can see that this name works.

----E 005
----Y 400
----A 001
----N 050
----Θ 009
----A 001
----Σ 200
Total 666

2 ΛATEINOΣ (Lateinos—The Latin Man). Eusebius wrote that this is a very probable solution, being the name of the last kingdom of the four seen in the vision of Daniel, as well as the fact that the Latins were ruling in the days in which Eusebius was writing.

----Λ 030
----A 001
----T 300
----E 005
----I 010
----N 050
----O 070
----Σ 200
Total 666

3 TEITAN (Teitan). Eusebius felt that this name was rather worthy of credit. He said that this was an ancient name, but that there were no kings in his day with this name, nor idols worshipped bearing this name. However, he said that this name was considered divine, and that the Romans called the sun by this name, and that it is a name belonging to a tyrant. The sum of the numerical equivalents of the letters of this name is also 666.

And now. How do some assign 666 to Nero's name? “Nero” is a Latin name, and although numbers were written in Latin characters as “Roman Numerals”, they were limited to I, V, X, L, C, D, and M. So the Latin name “Nero” would have no numerical value in Latin.

The Greek spelling of the name is “ΝΕΡΩΝ” (NERON). The Greek numerical value of this name is 1005.

So how do Preterists and others obtain the value of 666?

First they take the GREEK name “ΝΕΡΩΝ” and put it together with the GREEK word for “Caesar” which is “ΚΑΙΣΑΡ”. Of course the total Greek numerical value will not do, since it will be greater than 1005. So they transliterate these GREEK words into Hebrew. Now Hebrew has no vowels. So they remove the vowels from “ΝΕΡΩΝ” to get “NPN” (or “NRN” in Latin characters). Then they remove the vowels from “ΚΑΙΣΑΡ” and so one would expect them to get “ΚΣΡ” (“KSR” in Latin characters). But no! Instead of using the latin “K”, they select a somewhat similar sounding Latin character “Q”! Why do they choose “Q” instead of “K”? Well, the HEBREW numerical value “NRN KSR” doesn't add up to 666, but the Hebrew numerical value of ““NRN QSR” does! The Hebrew letter for “K” is either “Khof” or “Kaf”. But neither will work to produce “666”. However, the Hebrew letter for “Q”, namely “Qof” does work.

Image
We might ask ourselves:

1. Why should the number of the beast's name be calculated with Hebrew numeric characters? After all John, the author of Revelation, used Greek characters to express “666” itself!
2. Doesn't the method used to calculated the number of “Nero Cæsar” using Hebrew characters seem rather contrived?
3. Cannot a similar method be used to calculate the number of almost ANY name to be 666?

For example, suppose one wished to show that the number of Hitler's name is 666, using the English code A=10, B=20, C=30, etc.

H 080
I 090
T 200
L 120
E 050
R 180

The total is 720, but if we subtract the number of years (54) from Hitler's birth to 1933, the year he made his famous proclamation to the German people, we get 666. Indeed, when I was a child, I read a Christian tract which stated absolutely that Hitler was indeed the Antichrist.
Last edited by Paidion on Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paidion

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Re: Was Nero the Beast of Revelation?

Post by steve7150 » Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:57 pm

1. Why should the number of the beast's name be calculated with Hebrew numeric characters? After all John, the author of Revelation, used Greek characters to express “666” itself!
2. Doesn't the method used to calculated the number of “Nero Cæsar” using Hebrew characters seem rather contrived?










Yes plus the letter was addressed to greek churches far from Jerusalem. This leads to another question which is why would a letter about the destruction of Jerusalem be addressed to far away greek churches? Is this a "relevant audience"?

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robbyyoung
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Re: Was Nero the Beast of Revelation?

Post by robbyyoung » Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:10 pm

Hi All,

I'm going to give a little "Tongue in Cheek" here, therefore do not be offended :roll:

For goodness sakes! What part of this is hard to understand?

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,..."

or

"He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."

Listen, these things took place in the IST CENTURY! It is 100% irrelevant if we GET IT or NOT! For it DID NOT pertain TO US! YAHWEH requires us, the generations that follow, to believe the account.

Do you actually believe when this letter was distributed to these seven churches, and elsewhere, during the times, that THEY quibbled over WHAT THIS LETTER MEANT? When THEY had the INSPIRED Apostles and Prophets in their midst giving PERFECT COUNSEL?

WE MAY NEVER KNOW what all these symbols and metaphors really represented and how they came to fulfillment. But the ABSOLUTE ERROR is mistakenly trying to apply it to OUR or ANY OTHER PRECIOUS GENERATION claiming THE PRIZE!

GOOD GRIEF! Is YAHWEH inept? Can't He communicate in English, German, Italian, Russian, etc...? Concerning things that would effect those 2000 years, and counting, in the future? Or, how about GIVING THEM PROPHETS to ensure no one screws up the message!

But why would YAHWEH need to do that? WHEN THE TEXT DENOTES IT DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THESE FUTURE GENERATIONS!

Therefore, YAHWEH, is BRILLIANT! HIS message was perfectly formulated for the audience it was intended. 2000 years of delusion on the part of people NOT accepting who this message was intended for. And YAHWEH in HIS infinite wisdom seals off all prophecy, prophets, inspired writers and hope for clarity to a people expected to know Hebraic thought and culture, and Ancient Greek, all the while trying to grasp nonsensical statements as, soon, quickly, at hand, etc..., NOT REALLY meaning that, but ACTUALLY MEANS FAR, FAR AWAY into the distance future!? So therefore, FAR, FAR, AWAY into the future could really mean SOON, AT HAND, QUICKLY, ETC...

I MEAN, Good Grief!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As always, God Bless :) .

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Re: Was Nero the Beast of Revelation?

Post by Paidion » Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:53 pm

Robbie, the point of my initial post was not to demolish your preterism, but to demonstrate the irrationality of assigning 666 to the number of Nero's name—nothing else.

So if there is the slightes objection to ANY of the preterist's eschatology, he once again pulls out his trump card—the use of the word "ταχος" (tachos) in Revelation.

Is it possible that John did not KNOW when the events disclosed to him would occur?
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,..."
Did you notice that God first gave this revelation to Jesus Christ. That indicates that Jesus Himself was unaware of it prior to that revelation—which is consistent with the words found in Matt 24:36 concerning the timing of his coming, “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."

So if Jesus Himself did not know when those events would take place, how can we be so sure that John knew the timing of the events revealed in the vision he saw?
Paidion

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Re: Was Nero the Beast of Revelation?

Post by dwilkins » Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:08 pm

Given the options you offered, I kind of like option 2, "Lateinos—The Latin Man". On the other hand, I think most of the New Testament, and quite possibly Revelation, might have originally been written in Aramaic (which would bring us back to the Hebrew numbering system). The implications of "666" has almost nothing to do with the bigger issues involved in preterism. The fact that you think it's some sort of gotcha argument tells me that you don't know much about the topic as a whole.

Doug

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robbyyoung
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Re: Was Nero the Beast of Revelation?

Post by robbyyoung » Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:24 pm

Paidion wrote:Robbie, the point of my initial post was not to demolish your preterism, but to demonstrate the irrationality of assigning 666 to the number of Nero's name—nothing else.

So if there is the slightes objection to ANY of the preterist's eschatology, he once again pulls out his trump card—the use of the word "ταχος" (tachos) in Revelation.

Is it possible that John did not KNOW when the events disclosed to him would occur?
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,..."
Did you notice that God first gave this revelation to Jesus Christ. That indicates that Jesus Himself was unaware of it prior to that revelation—which is consistent with the words found in Matt 24:36 concerning the timing of his coming, “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."

So if Jesus Himself did not know when those events would take place, how can we be so sure that John knew the timing of the events revealed in the vision he saw?
Hi Paidion,

My dear Brother, thanks for taking my silly attempt at humor in stride. But I would like to address the "Yeshua not knowing" question.

I really don't understand your point. Yeshua is in Heaven with The Father. The Father, gave Yeshua His unveiling, to finally give to John, via an angel(messenger) from Heaven, that IN-FACT, The Father has disclosed Yeshua is ON THE WAY SOON!

John IS NOT the focus! What he wrote, by inspiration of The Holy Spirit, is THE FOCUS! Either way, John new very well what soon, quickly, etc... meant! Again, is YAHWEH that bad of a communicator? After all, this went out to the churches and abroad regarding it's urgency!

I really struggle to understand how in the world people continue not to see this? And this is why - If they were living during this time and received this letter, THESE ARGUMENTS WOULD BE SILENCED! Never in a MILLION years would THEY see the message irrelevant to them, FOR IT WAS ADDRESSED TO THEM!!!!!!!!!!!

WOW! Please help me to understand why you are so vehemently against the clear intended audience and the inspiration that goes with it? Why is it that people want these horrific things to come upon another generation, just so they can experience what was promised to an audience 2000 years ago? If anything, we should be rejoicing that we do not have to undergo such judgment and enjoy the age that was to come.

God Bless Bro!

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Re: Was Nero the Beast of Revelation?

Post by steve7150 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:11 am

I really struggle to understand how in the world people continue not to see this? And this is why - If they were living during this time and received this letter, THESE ARGUMENTS WOULD BE SILENCED! Never in a MILLION years would THEY see the message irrelevant to them, FOR IT WAS ADDRESSED TO THEM!!!!!!!!!!!








Robby,
But it wasn't addressed to them meaning Jerusalem, it was addressed to churches in Asia. Also the point Paidion made is valid which is that God gave this revelation to Jesus which means Jesus supposedly didn't know.
But Jesus specifically warned about the destruction of Jerusalem in the gospels. He even precisely warned his followers the exact moment to flee.

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Re: Was Nero the Beast of Revelation?

Post by steve » Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:56 am

1. Why should the number of the beast's name be calculated with Hebrew numeric characters? After all John, the author of Revelation, used Greek characters to express “666” itself!
The argument of the preterist about this is that the name was deliberately made obscure to conceal it from any but "he who has understanding" (13:18). If Nero was the contemporary emperor at the time of writing, he would naturally be suspected to be the Beast described, and if his name were to be represented in Greek, it would be easily discerned by anyone—thus thwarting the intended obscurity.

There were some in the churches who knew Hebrew (e.g., some of the Jewish converts), and most Christians had some anecdotal familiarity with it (there are some Hebrew words even in the Greek manuscripts of Revelation—e.g., 9:11; 19:1)—though the average Roman (the audience from whom the name was intended to be concealed) would know no Hebrew at all.

Using the Hebrew form of the name would therefore make the solution accessible to Christians, while keeping it out of reach from the Romans.

2. Doesn't the method used to calculated the number of “Nero Cæsar” using Hebrew characters seem rather contrived?
Yes, which does leave the identification open to question. However, in an attempt to conceal the meaning from the average person, it might well be "contrived" to render unlikely the average reader's figuring it out. John would thus not be offering a straightforward disclosure of the Beast's identity, but rather a riddle to be deciphered by those of "understanding" (13:18).

Irenaeus and Eusebius seem not to have been among those who had this "understanding," since they did not know for sure to whom the gematria applied. This may be because they were assuming a future rise of the Beast, and they had to therefore work with a list of words and names that did not include past individuals, like Nero, as candidates.

They seem to have been looking in the wrong time period, since John believed that there were some readers living in his day who would be able to "calculate the number" and identify the Beast. The number, therefore, had to identify someone contemporary with the readers, or else no one would have been able to break the code. Yet, John assumed some would be able to do so.

3. Cannot a similar method be used to calculate the number of almost ANY name to be 666?
This seems almost to be the case—though not quite. There have been, probably, dozens of names that have been worked-out by various ingenious devices to total the number 666. The number is not infinitely flexible, however. For example, it has not proved so flexible as to have allowed its realistic identification with anyone in the reign of Domitian.

"Latin Man" is a possibility, but seems strained to me. The principal problem with this is that "Latin Man" is too generic, and would apply to millions of individuals, identifying none in particular. John said that the number 666 was "the number of a man"—apparently a particular man. The identification with Nero might seem strained to some, but the case can be made for him, and there are no other candidates. This would seem to make him the front runner.

If Revelation 17:10 is telling us that the contemporary Beast, in John's day, was the sixth Roman emperor (as many scholars have believed), then this would also suggest Nero.

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Re: Was Nero the Beast of Revelation?

Post by robbyyoung » Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:32 pm

steve7150 wrote:I really struggle to understand how in the world people continue not to see this? And this is why - If they were living during this time and received this letter, THESE ARGUMENTS WOULD BE SILENCED! Never in a MILLION years would THEY see the message irrelevant to them, FOR IT WAS ADDRESSED TO THEM!!!!!!!!!!!








Robby,
But it wasn't addressed to them meaning Jerusalem, it was addressed to churches in Asia. Also the point Paidion made is valid which is that God gave this revelation to Jesus which means Jesus supposedly didn't know.
But Jesus specifically warned about the destruction of Jerusalem in the gospels. He even precisely warned his followers the exact moment to flee.
Hi steve7150,

What??? Who said anything about Jerusalem? Of course is was addressed to The Churches in Asia. That's the "THEM" I'm referring to. There is nothing valid concerning Paidion's point! What are you talking about? Yeshua gave His revelation to John, to give to The Seven Churches in Asia. The Father knows, now He told The Son, therefore, He now knows, and He gave it to His bondservant(s)! What are you talking about????

The message was given to the intended audience, and the events, ALL OF THEM, were to take place soon, quickly, etc...

Steve just gave a wonderful breakdown of the argument against or for Nero. But the preponderance of evidence places this concern during a time NOT to exceed 70 A.D., regrading the 666 question. No where does the preponderance of evidence lead you to another people, place and time! Preterism has nothing to do with this! This is basic biblical hermeneutics. Therefore, 666 has it's best understanding when applied, as it should, to the original audience's lifetime.

God Bless!
Last edited by robbyyoung on Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Was Nero the Beast of Revelation?

Post by Douglas » Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:49 pm

Duncan posted this a while back, and I remembered it.

"Even the much-touted Nero solution to the riddle of 666 requires the use of a defective spelling of his name. In addition, the Nero solution does not even appear until the nineteenth century! Regarding the connection between Nero and 666, Kistemaker writes, “When did the writers begin to identify Nero with the number [666] in this particular passage [Rev. 13:18]? There is no reference anywhere in history until the 1830s when four German scholars proposed his name." To put it simply, all the scriptures associated with the Antichrist can be applied to Titus, and almost none can be applied to Nero. The reason for this is simple. Scripture shows the Antichrist attacking and capturing Jerusalem and the Temple (Dan. 9:26; 11:36-12:13; Matt. 24:1-2, 15-21; 2 Thess. 2:4; Rev. 17-18). This was accomplished by Titus not Nero."

Robert H. Mounce, The Book of Revelation, rev. ed., The New International Commentary on the New Testament, eds. Ned Stonehouse, F. F. Bruce, and Gordon Fee (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Publishing, 1998), 262. Mounce writes the following:
The solution most commonly accepted today is that 666 is the numerical equivalent of Nero Caesar. It is held to be supported by the variant reading 616, which also yields the name of Nero when the Latinized spelling is followed. What is not generally stressed is that this solution asks us to calculate a Hebrew transliteration of the Greek form of a Latin name, and that with a defective spelling. A shift to Hebrew letters is unlikely in that Revelation is written in Greek and there is no indication that the riddle is to be solved by transposing it into another language. Further, the name of Nero was apparently never suggested by the ancient commentators even though his persecuting zeal made him a model of the Antichrist.

If Titus is supposed to be who was identified by 666, then where is the connection?

- Douglas

edit: I found this interesting.

666 = VIVIVI refers to the phrase Veni, Vidi, Vici = written by Julius Caesar in 46 BC, meaning I came, I saw, I conquered. (not sure how accurate this is, but interesting none the less)

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