The two witnesses.

jaydam · Post by **jaydam** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:22 pm

Quick question:

The two witnesses are killed by the beast from the abyss. Rev 11:3-7

This seems an easy parallel to Satan's short release from the abyss in Rev 20

What do you guys see this as referring to?

I would be interested in hearing from Robby and Matt if they get a chance.

Maybe it isn't parallel?

Thanks guys.

robbyyoung · Post by **robbyyoung** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:40 pm

jaydam wrote:Quick question:

The two witnesses are killed by the beast from the abyss. Rev 11:3-7
This seems an easy parallel to Satan's short release from the abyss in Rev 20
What do you guys see this as referring to?
I would be interested in hearing from Robby and Matt if they get a chance.
Maybe it isn't parallel?
Thanks guys.

Hey jaydam,

IMHO, Rev 11:3-7 is more in line with Rev 17:8. But notice what is said to John - This beast is ABOUT to come out of the abyss, BUT it already WAS (that's means somewhere in history, short or long). Next, IT IS NOT (that means presently it isn't revealed or on the scene).

I also find it fascinating how Rev 11 eludes to this beast before it's even discussed, God gives a fast-forward if you will????

As far as the two witnesses are concerned, the Word of God tells us who they are. It's found in Zechariah 4:11-14 compare with Rev 11:4. And sadly that's all we know. Anything more would be pure speculation on our part, which will bring me to my concluding remarks.

Brother jaydam, please bare with me, indulge me, if you will, as I make my case. As you know, I believe The Revelation, one prophecy, had its fulfillment, as stated in the time markers, from start to finish in the lifetime of the original audience. Another proof to this, regarding the two witnesses, is given in the internal evidence. Rev 11:3 says, they will prophesy for 1260 days. Daniel 9:24 says, in 70 weeks (490 years) there will be an end to prophets and visions. Therefore, whatever Rev 11:3-7 is talking about, there is no way it can go beyond the 70AD age ending event.

Sadly, we post 70AD Believers will NEVER know what all The Revelation symbology, spiritual and literal fulfillments emphatically meant or how they transpired. Why? Because we need prophets to decipher the meaning. You see, these letters were written to seven literal churches, whom God qualified and blessed to decipher its message. God's genius is unsurpassed even to this day! No Prophets, No understanding without error!

For 2000 years we've had a large percentage of speculation concerning something that was to shortly take place, requiring 100% accurate interpretation. Well, it wasn't for us, so I'm not surprised on the confusion, trying to accomplish the impossible. We clearly DO NOT and WILL NOT have any Prophets coming along to bring us clarity. Shouldn't this make everyone STOP and THINK?

Are we to believe that there is more INSPIRED text to be added? That would require a HOLY Prophet! But Dan 9 says, 490 years is all what Israel had left. I believe, just as every NT Writer and the Assemblies believed, their generation was the privileged one to witness all these things.

So jaydam, God knew what HE was doing to prevent HIS enemies from unlocking The Revelation message. Prophets were needed and The Church had them. The message was given and judgment came. We will just have to have fun speculating on how these things were accomplished. Of course, The Futurist camp will continue to see never ending signs and so forth and so on... But I'm pretty convinced it's over.

God Bless.

jaydam · Post by **jaydam** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:24 pm

Thanks Robby, I know your view, that's why I enjoy hearing your input.

I am not qualified to speak on much of what you said yet, but I will say:

While I may see Dan 9:24 as fulfilled, I do not see it as referring to an ending to vision and prophecy.

A word study of the the Hebrew for "sealed" indicates it means confirmed or to affix a seal. I think the greater chance is that the visions and prophecy will be confirmed. This can also be said to have the affect of sealing them, in the sense that fulfillment or confirmation is the only way we can know the vision or prophecy was legit. Bringing about their fulfillment - confirmation, God legitimizes them - affixes his seal upon them.

I think 70 AD culminated the confirmation of the prophecies and visions.

In a broader aspect:

I continue to study out my position, but I am coming to the idea that the rock of Daniel has smashed the statue, it is the growing mountain, likely related to the language of the holy mountain with the new Jerusalem which the author of Hebrews declares to be a present reality. Making Revelation 21 a present reality.

It might be a little crazy train of thought, but it seems possible.

Paidion · Post by **Paidion** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:50 pm

Second century Christian writers understood that Elijah and Enoch never died, and that God has preserved them from death and they continue to live in their natural bodies.
They taught that these are the two witnesses, whom God will send to the earth as proclaimers of God's truth, and that they will die for the first time at the hands of the Beast, but will be raised from death 3 days later.

robbyyoung · Post by **robbyyoung** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:23 am

jaydam wrote: While I may see Dan 9:24 as fulfilled, I do not see it as referring to an ending to vision and prophecy.

Hey Bro, I understand and know about the other rendering of "seal up" and can absolutely appreciate the study concerning it. However, it doesn't change "The Prophecy" cosummation of 70 weeks amongst other things relevent to the 1st Century. Therefore, the perponderance of the evidence all point to that 1st century generation. This is "the smoking gun" that I cannot ignore. They had all the advantages to get it right (The Timing and understanding). This to me, is such a clear cut case compared to our confusion with zero indication of "time statements" referring to us or any other era. There is NO perponderance of the evidence to suggest that, so why follow a dead lead forward, when the evidence leads you backwards?

Nevertheless, I wish you all the success in your studies, and it was great hearing from you.

God Bless!

Paidion · Post by **Paidion** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:49 pm

perdonderance???

robbyyoung · Post by **robbyyoung** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:56 pm

Paidion wrote:perdonderance???

Is there a problem in Pleasantville?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Robby Young
U.S. Army Retired

Paidion · Post by **Paidion** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:19 pm

Robby wrote:
Paidion wrote:perponderance???
Is there a problem in Pleasantville?

I don't know whether you have a problem or not. Did you recently coin the word? Or did you mean to write "preponderance"? or did you mispell ""preponderance"? Or was it a typo?

robbyyoung · Post by **robbyyoung** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:42 pm

Paidion wrote:
Robby wrote:
Paidion wrote:perponderance???
Is there a problem in Pleasantville?
I don't know whether you have a problem or not. Did you recently coin the word? Or did you mean to write "preponderance"? or did you mispell ""preponderance"? Or was it a typo?

Sigh... Yes Brother, it was a typo -

God Bless.

canada · Post by **canada** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:33 am

There are the “two witnesses” of Revelation 11 and there are God’s two “everlasting witnesses” that He inspired Moses to place in Torah 3 ½ prophetic “days” ago … ie 3,500 years ago in the Shema. Deut 6:4

Most Jews and likely most Christians are unaware of these two everlasting witnesses, but God told the Jew to place them before their very eyes, and in literal obedience, the orthodox Jew does place them there.

These two witnesses have lain there “as dead” (DE AD) since the day that God inspired Moses to place them there.

I believe they are a sign to the blinded Jew that Jesus (Y’shua) is the Jewish Messiah that they rejected. He is the light of the Menorah, He spoke in parables and He died on the cross.

But, as a student of prophecy, this will likely fall upon deaf ears of Jew and Christian alike.

The Narrow Path Ministries